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Atheists…not so much
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Today, some 5 million Americans claim to be atheists — and they’re coming out of the closet. Throw in the agnostics, and you have 20 million godless. In this week’s WORLD, Gene Edward Veith notes that though the number of declared godless is increasing, their standing has not increased: A University of Minnesota poll last year found that atheists were America’s most distrusted group. According to a recent Newsweek poll, 62 percent of Americans would refuse to vote for an atheist running for president.
As a result, atheists allege a whole host of slights, hostility, and civil-rights violations. And so many atheists are trying to do what homosexuals did when they pulled off one of the biggest public-relations coups in history, in part by rebranding themselves as “gay.” Atheists are calling themselves “brights.”
When people start talking about their religion and some say, “I’m a Christian,” or “I’m a Muslim,” an atheist may say, “I’m a bright.” We can then anticipate “equal rights for brights” and measures forbidding discrimination against “bright Americans.”
The problem for atheists, though, is that the term may not do them much good. That they think of themselves as “bright” grows out of their self-image. If atheists think they are bright while the rest of us are stupid, their opinion will probably alienate the public more than their views on God.
Read the rest of Ed’s take here.
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I’d like to see more of them BeRight in their views of God.
(BeRight is another way of saying bright. I figured it out all by myself.)
I’m not going to claim any direct expertise on this, but I do imagine it must be difficult to find a like-minded atheist gal to marry up with if you’re an atheist dude. I’m sure there are dating services out there for the nontheisticly inclined, but I suspect most atheists are quite lonely folks.
Some years back I heard a radio talk host named Tom Lykis boast of his atheism. He seemed insincere to be honest. He boasted about having lotsa of girlfriends and perhaps he was able to do that, but I doubt any one gal would ever be his partner for life (ie wife).
Lynn - Your original heading to this thread got me all excited - I see you had a change of mind.
“…their opinion will probably alienate the public more than their views on God.”
I think that’s already happened.
Bright Atheists…
World MagBlog reports:
Today, some 5 million Americans claim to be atheists — and they’re coming out of the closet.
Quoting from a linked-to article:
As a result, atheists allege a whole host of slights, hostility, and civil-rights violat…
Hey, WorldMagBlog is open to trackbacks. Neat-o! (I wonder how long that will last.)
VS, do you remember the original post title. I noticed it was different but can’t remember how it used to be. Maybe something along the lines of Not So Bright Atheists?
I do remember it, but don’t want to give it away in case Lynn changed it for a particular reason!
What are trackbacks?
Atheists lonely? Even if it’s true, is that a reason to become a Christian? Maybe it’s equal to the type of suffereing that Christans like to do. I have dated plenty of people who beleived in god. I don’t think mere beleif in god is a deal breaker whatsoever. Maybe that’s just my circle, I dunno. I have also dated a republican from time to time, in fact, dating one right now.
I find that many Christians, maybe not the right winger type, don’t read the Bible or understand any of the tough questions, they just believe becuase it’s all they’ve ever been exposed to thoughtout their lives. If you want to count them amongst your team members, please do. Most atheists on the otherhand, were not raised atheist, but rather, rejected religion for whatever reason.
Any ideas why atheists, smart well educated articulate atheists, don’t beleive? Do you think they are stupid? If possible, don’t use scripture in your arguement. It’s like using the word in the defination of the same word.
While the more militant atheists make more noise, I’d posit there are many more who sit in the pew each Sunday;p folks who are ‘functional unbelievers.’ The faith they profess has little or no impact on how life is lived or choices made. Bits and pieces of biblical teaching is chosen to support an essentially atheist world view.
As for dating and marriage; the ‘princess’ of one congregration was going to marry a young man who said he was not a Christian and had no intent of exploring Christianity. The pastor did not want to marry them, but was forced to under the threat of losing his job.
Hard to imagine a self respecting atheist calling him or herself a “bright”. Absolutely new categories of silliness.
Hey, CoyoteBlue, I’m with you.
And BTW, re the dating and marriage thing–I know lots of married couples who are at least agnostics. I don’t get how being a Christian per se would make you any more attractive to anyone but another Christian, and it would be only one of many factors. For example, I’ve known a lot of Christian guys I’d never have considered marrying.
Atheists are calling themselves “brights.”
Actually nobody is doing that. This was one of Dawkins’ dumber ideas. Nobody else thought it was a good idea.
Most atheists don’t call themselves anything. Most of them never waste their time (like I do) talking about the fact there is no magic man. Most atheists ignore religions because they think it’s a waste of time to pay attention to nonsense.
If atheists call themselves anything, they call themselves an atheist, which means “not a theist”. Atheist also is another word for “not insane”, and “not insane” would be a good substitute for the word “atheist”.
Holy Roller: “Do you believe in God?”
Atheist: “No, I’m not insane.”
Just when you thought they couldn’t get more condescending, they call themselves “brights.”
I suppose that makes us “dims.” I’ll take it; after all, the Bible does talk about “the foolishness of preaching.”
Stubob, please see the comment just before yours. The “Brights” nonsense, invented by Dawkins, is ignored by everyone else. I’m a frequent visitor of atheist blogs and science blogs, and not once have I ever heard the word “Brights” being used. Atheists call themselves atheists.
I learned long ago, whenever some stranger starts babbling to me about jesus stupidity, to never tell them I’m atheist. If I told them I’m an atheist (which means “not insane”) they would ask me “what happened to you?” and then they would start lying to me about evolution and everything else. Instead of getting into boring discussions with insane holy rollers pushing their jesus myth, I just say “excuse me, got to go”.
Pfft, and that 62% is made up of Christians who irrationally distrust anyone who doesn’t share their worldview.
“As a result, atheists allege a whole host of slights, hostility, and civil-rights violations.”
That would be very rare. Virtually all atheists keep quiet about their non-belief in stupidity. If nobody knows they are an atheist, they are not likely to be a victim of discrimination. It’s likely some of the current candidates for president are atheists who have enough sense to pretend they are magic man believers. They don’t want to lose the votes of the vast number of insane holy rollers in god-soaked America.
The atheists I have known usually describe themselves as “not religious”.
#7 “Any ideas why atheists, smart well educated articulate atheists, don’t beleive?”
Based on personal observation of people I’ve known over the years, I’d say that at least one reason some people don’t believe is because they don’t want to, often because of stuff from their past. Since kids tend to picture God as being like their parents, it’s not surprising that some people choose not to believe. Most of the atheists and agnostics I’ve been exposed to had problematic relationships with their dads (although this wasn’t always obvious on a surface level) or came from very chaotic families. Some came from very legalistic backgrounds (”rules without relationship breed rebellion”). I don’t know that childhood environment is the main reason for everyone, but it does seem to be a major factor in those people I’ve known–and these people aren’t necessarily a representative sample.
I personally turned away from God for a while. I had been to a hellfire and brimstone Christian school where everything was evil, music was backmasked, rosaries and crucifixes were possessed of the devil, we had to sign a contract not to go to movies and not to listen to certain radio stations. Do you realize what is left to do if you are a teenager and can’t listen to music, can’t go to a movie, etc. Thousand wonders only two girls I went to school with got pregnant. Eventually I found the Episcopal church where they told me God loved me. What an interesting concept. You mean God isn’t some white robed white haired old cuss moving us around like pieces on a chessboard and tripping me up so that my life is hell???? Oh my God (literally) tell me more???? I think sometimes Christians make it too hard to share the love of God. I eventually came back to God and have a stronger belief than I ever had before.
Most atheists I know:
1) had parents who were believers and who were either a) way to the right like Kim describes, or b) were total hypocrites who claimed to be Christians, but who were horrible parents
2) had parents who were atheists and never taught their children differently. Then, when the person went off to college, their belief shifted to include “being better” and “being more educated” than theists. But, the honest truth is that they’ve never even examined the issues fairly.
3) are mad at God for some reason (an unfair death, a terrible illness, the loss of a child….)and are “atheists” only because they are so mad at God that they “pretend” He isn’t there.
Oh TRS I am so glad you mentioned the ones who are angry with God. I recently ended a relationship with a man who was a Christian, sang in the church choir etc. Until his father died. (the guy I dated was 19 when his dad died). He is still angry with God that the father died and there were unresolved issues. After we broke up he asked me to go to councelling with him and I agreed thinking I could at least get him in the door and let the therapist take over after we got there. It never happened.
I have a theory that multi-paragraph posts are blocked by the blog so this will be one unbroken paragraph. Sorry about that. On this subject I can only speak from my own experience. I’ve never known any atheist or agnostic who referred to him/herself as a “bright.” I remember reading about this new pop term a few years ago. It never caught on as far as I can tell. Silly to write about it so long after the fact. As for being distrusted, I haven’t experienced that at all. On the contrary. My religious neighbor lady who knew full well that I don’t believe in God chose me over every one of her church friends and relatives to execute her large estate after her death. She thought they wanted her money. She knew I was a friend. My religious mother calls me, not my religious sister and her husband, when she really needs help. She knows she can count on us. My wife’s Catholic brother and his very Catholic wife chose us to take guardianship of their 3 young daughters should something happen to them, in spite of us being the only un-believers in our large family. We are far from lonely and isolated. We have good friends from many backgrounds and religious traditions. Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, Protestant, Buddhist, and Muslim. Probably others. One who went through a voo-doo phase after spending some time in Haiti. We don’t scoff at them, and they don’t try to preach their mysticism to us. It works out fine. There are so many other things in life that we have in common that it seldom comes up. Occasionally we have really fun discussions about religion in general. I have faith that they are learning. We even host a big Christmas party for our friends and family every year. Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
On this subject I can only speak from my own experience. I’ve never known any atheist or agnostic who referred to him/herself as a “bright.” I remember reading about this new pop term a few years ago. It never caught on as far as I can tell. Silly to write about it so long after the fact.
I had a longer post that was blocked. I will submit it in tiny bits. I apologize if it looks like I am posting many comments. It was supposed to be in one easy to scroll past comment.
As for being distrusted, I haven’t experienced that at all. On the contrary. My religious neighbor lady who knew full well that I don’t believe in God chose me over every one of her church friends and relatives to execute her large estate after her death. She thought they wanted her money. She knew I was a friend. My religious mother calls me, not my religious sister and her husband, when she really needs help. She knows she can count on us. My wife’s Catholic brother and his very Catholic wife chose us to take guardianship of their 3 young daughters should something happen to them, in spite of us being the only un-believers in our large family.
We are far from lonely and isolated. We have good friends from many backgrounds and religious traditions. Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, Protestant, Buddhist, and Muslim. Probably others. One who went through a voo-doo phase after spending some time in Haiti. We don’t scoff at them, and they don’t try to preach their mysticism to us. It works out fine. There are so many other things in life that we have in common that it seldom comes up. Occasionally we have really fun discussions about religion in general. I have faith that they are learning. We even host a big Christmas party for our friends and family every year.
Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several religious girlfriends who wanted to get married before I finally met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection for Xmas
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough. We send our kids to a top notch secular private school. We don’t take them to church, although they sometimes get to go with their grandparents or with a friend. We talk about it afterwards. A broad experience base is essential to raising a well rounded person.
Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several religious girlfriends who wanted to get married before I finally met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection for Xmas
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
Now the posts are getting blocked or eaten by the blog-monkey.
Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate.
I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks.
I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene!
#18, can’t you say the same thing about Christians, they believe because they want to beleive? They can’t exist without thinking that there is some purpose here on earth, some reason to be here. It’s scary to think you could be here alone, I agree.
I know you’re only talking from your experience, but I can tell you that from my experience, an atheist makes the tough decision in his/her life, to go against the tide, to speak out at the risk of being shunned by society. It’s not easy being an atheist if you care about getting ahead in a Christian(ish) nation.
On the otherhand, I find most Christians (I am talking about the non-right wingers) who merely believe in God because this is what their mom told them to do (You do agree that MOST Christians are like that right?), have not taken a hard look at their faith. They don’t know how to answer the question “Where did God come from”, which to me is the simpliest reason not to be a religious person. Most Christians don’t REALLY understand why they are Christians or why they beleive what they beleive, which is part of the reason why I like to read up here on World Mag.
In regard to #20, part 2, do you teach your children “differently”? Do you teach your children about Muhammad and let them make a choice. Really think about that one before you answer it because it’s a little tricky.
Before I met my wife, I had several long-term girlfriends who wanted to get married. My lack of religion was not an obstacle. I went to Mass with my wife’s family once at Christmas. It was a lot of work with all the ups and owns, and the incense gave me a sinus infection. No thanks!
Before I met my wife I had several religious girlfriends who wanted to get married. My wife was Catholic when we were married. She now self-describes as an agnostic. I’m proud of her for having the strength to admit that she doesn’t know.
We send our kids to one of the top secular private schools on the west coast. We don’t take them to church, although they sometimes get to go recreationally with their grandparents or with a friend. We talk about it afterwards. A broad experience base is essential to raising a well rounded person.
I’d write more, but the blog is to annoying to continue.
I would like to take a shot at answering how I teach my child. I am raising her to believe in God. I firmly believe the only reason she is hear is because of all the people who prayed for me to have her. (I travelled quite a bit for work when I was going through infertility, so everytime I flew into a city I called the local prayer hotline and requested prayer. There truly is no telling how many people prayed for me to have her). I am raising her to be Episcopalian because I am. She is baking bread this afternoon for communion as part of her first communion class. I am raising her to be straight because I am. I am raising her to be kind and gracious because I TRY to be. I want her to be what I want her to be BUT I realize she is going to be who she is going to be. If she turns out to be atheist I am going to love her more and pray even harder for her. I am not going to lock her out of my life. If you turns out to be gay I am going to love her more and pray harder for her because I know she will have chosen a difficult way of life. All parents have a vision of what they want their children to be when they grow up and we all try to raise them that way. If she can justify her beliefs to me when she is an adult I will respect them. I will not believe them also, but I will respect them. Now if she brings some loser home whether male or female I will put my foot down. I only say this because I have a friend who has a family she is quite close to and the daughter wants to marry her girlfriend and the girlfriend is the most childish loser anyone one of us has ever been around. Talk about a “marriage” that is doomed from the beginning. Her mother said at least they won’t have to go through a legal divorce.
scott and hamachi - Some might beleive “because they want to” but that was not the case with me. I was raised in a household with RC parents who didn’t do much pushing of faith (they were fairly good examples in their lives though). When I stop attending church (not having developed any faith while going), I would have preferred to gothe “enlightened” route of my peer network and not believe. Over time, with examination ofvarious positions, I came to believe more against my wishes that in line with them.
I kind of resent Lynn lumping atheists and agnostics in the same basket. I think it’s an unfair characterization. Not that I consider atheists to be bad or anything - I just think we’re two distinct groups.
As a questioning agnostic, I consider both atheists and religious believers to be the two extreme poles. Both groups claim their particular beliefs to be absolute.
Then there is those of us who just don’t know. I think there are more of us than the polls indicate. I suspect their are Christians who have their doubts and their are atheists who have their doubts.
As for what people want to call themselves, I have no problem with whatever they chose. It’s no skin off my back.
Ok, my spelling and grammar are off today…must be the drugs
I’m on drugs too, Anlir. The Vicodin is great stuff, but makes me itchy
If I counter that with Benadryl, it’s lights out! I think the antibiotics are working, thank Doc.
How are we defining the term atheist here.
a) someone who believes there are NO Gods.
b) someone who lacks belief in Gods.
Atheists do need a more positive spin. Of all the silly things, why do they pick on God? They could do worse than call themselves by the name that William James gave such a good reputation to: pragmatist.
whoah…vicodin and benadryl should put a horse out of commission
Glad it’s working for you.
I know very few atheists, but they seem just as dogmatic to me about their lack of belief in God as the Christians do about their belief in God. I’m very comfortable being in the middle.
I try not to be prejudiced toward either group. I have sympathy for atheists though, just because they are a minority and the way they’re treated by other people.
Scroop, I love your avatar! The elephant seems to have a pretty wide stance
KRM, did your parents push you to question god (especailly not RC’s who don’t read the Bible)? Did you do the typical RC thing, like go to church, fill the basket with cash, get baptised, receive commuion and get confirmed? If so, it’d be pretty hard to say that your parents didn’t push it. How is that not pushing? krm, also, can you show me an atheist or a christian who will say that they beleive what they beleive because it fulfills some type of predisposed desire to be one or the other? I doubt it, but if you find one, let me know.
#36. I doubt that many atheists pick on god. That’s like picking on the boogie man or the tooth fairy. The more apt description is that they pick on your faith, which is particularily troublesome to most religious people becuase it’s so scary to them. That’s why we temper the “love” of the bible with the scariness of hell and gods fury and killing the children of bethel and on and on and on.
A couple of remarks about atheists being lonely, made me think of the following
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
TRS #20: Most atheists I know: 3) are mad at God for some reason
A person who is mad at God is NOT an atheist. That person is an idiot. No person can be mad at something he doesn’t believe exists.
Atheism is simple. It means not theism. Atheists have figured out all gods are inventions, invented by primitive science-ignorant people who were looking for an easy explanation of things they did not understand. Instead of saying “I don’t know” or “who cares?” these ancient know-nothing people invented magic and they called their magic “God”. Atheists have figured out magic is nonsense. It’s interesting the percentage of atheists in the scientific community is much higher than for non-scientists. There’s a good reason for that. The more a person understands science, the less likely he is to believe in a god, which is just another word for magic.
A whole whack of assumptions, guesses and even a few Freudain like analysis of atheists childhoods. Infact a whole load of needless speculation permeates this thread.
Since our brain structure determines our response to the socio-environmental stimuli, the nature of our personal beliefs is in all liklihood predetermined. All Calvinists can now jump in and claim their faith was always based on science. The strength or lack of beliefs is based on the hardwiring of our brains.
A whole whack of assumptions, guesses and even a few Freudain like analysis of atheists childhoods. Infact a whole load of needless speculation permeates this thread.
God does not believe in atheists!
The word agnostic, means ‘without knowledge’. So how can they be called ‘bright’? Atheists aren’t ambivalent about God, they are specifically against him. This means they are against something they say doesn’t exist. Not very bright!
The word Lucifer means ‘bright one’. Can we call these bright ones the lucid ones?
Romans 1:18-22 states that there is no such thing as agnostics, i.e. people who don’t know about God. God has presented himself to everyone. You can test this theory by asking anyone on the planet what they think of God. Everyone will immediately have an opinion, meaning they have thought about him. Atheists simply deny it. Not very bright.
Sure are a lot of posts by atheist agnostics, or is that agnostic atheists?
Mr. Buckles, An agnostic is a wishy-washy person who is unable to make decisions. An agnostic claims he doesn’t know whether or not there is a magic man. An atheist has made a decision. He or she has completely ruled out the possibility gods are anything more than inventions of people who are too lazy to try to understand the natural world.
Mr. Xion, atheists are no more against God, than they are against the tooth fairy. Both creatures are imaginary and it would be pointless to be against something that doesn’t exist.
I know of at least one atheist who is against something (me). I’m against the idea of teaching children about the invented magic man before they are old enough to think for themselves. It’s just not fair to a child to drill nonsense into him when he is young and gullible and likely to believe any insanity.
A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
#20: Actually, TRS, I recently heard of a study being done at an Ivy League school (Princeton maybe?) which seeks to see if there is a correlation between atheism and a poor family life/upbringing (in particular, a poor relationship with one’s father). Of course, there are some well-known precedents for such a hypothesis (e.g., Freud, Marx), although one would not want to be guilty of making a sweeping generalization on the matter.
At any rate, this is pretty much old news. I heard of the so-called “brights” several months ago, and it amounted to a PR move to lend palatability to a few acid-tongued/penned militant atheists (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc.). They are preaching to the choir and getting cheers from their own ranks, but one wonders why they think that poor research coupled with mockery and ridicule will win them any allies.
Hmmm. Someone spends their every waking hour attacking Christians for their beliefs and says it is pointless to be against something that doesn’t exist. Very bright indeed! This deep routed rage against the things of God is founded on vanity. I feel sorry for these people so full of unfounded hatred.
Anlir –
Is #38 a tap? Watch my left foot!
Xion –
Where in the world did you get #41 for a definition of agnostic?Personally, I think the distinction between “atheist” and “agnostic” is academic, so you might as well call yourself “agnostic” in order to receive better treatment. Atheism requires almost as much energy as theism and for what?
Xion, Your sky daddy only lives in your imagination, but christians exist, muslims exist, and jews exist, and these 3 religions are costing me, an American taxpayer, plenty of money to support their religious wars. That’s what I’m against, religious violence, and religious stupidity that makes people lie to children about science.
I agree it’s probably a waste of time to talk about it, but do you really think rational people should ignore muslims flying airplanes into buildings, and Christians lying to children, and Christians yelling at science teachers?
Isn’t it interesting that Christians are constantly attacking science and scientists? Christians, including you Xion, know the biggest threat to religious insanity is science. That’s why Christians are constantly spreading lies about science, especially science that conflicts with the stupidity of Genesis.
So you see, Mr. Xion, it’s not your man-made magician I have a problem with. The problem is the huge mass of strange people who are letting their strange god beliefs cause much harm to human progress, with their violence and their anti-science lies.
“Where did God come from”
******Why in the world would that be an important question?
If it is, then please tell me: where did matter come from? Where did the tiny dot of infinitely compressed matter come from that started the Big Bang? What was there before the Big Bang? What is our Universe stretching into beyond its borders?
If you can’t answer those things, then I guess you can’t be a scientist either.
See how silly that is?
We can ask the questions, but there are many things we simply can’t yet answer. Where God came from is one of them.
There are FAR more important questions, such as what do you now do with your life if you discover He is actually there?
Scott,
Of course I teach my children the Christian world view. That is what parents do…teach their children what they have discovered to be true.
So, of course atheists do the same thing thinking they are teaching “truth.” I was simply answering the question where do atheists come from?
Qwerty,
Sometimes, you need to read more carefully.
As I said in #20, third part: Some people are so mad at God for some reason that they PRETEND to be atheists, even to themselves, when all they’re really doing is running away from Him in anger. There’s a fair number of those people.
Just listen to the first question that comes out of their mouths when religion comes up…”how can a good God allow ______________?”
Anlir writes: I kind of resent Lynn lumping atheists and agnostics in the same basket. I think it’s an unfair characterization. Not that I consider atheists to be bad or anything - I just think we’re two distinct groups.
I didn’t do the lumping, Anlir…just quoting Ed’s op-ed
TRS #49, ok, I stand corrected.
TJ, in #44 you were talking about Dawkins’ idea to call atheists “brights”. Back in #11 I pointed out nobody uses that word. It was a dumb idea and everyone ignored it.
Xion, I replied to your comments in #45 but they disappeared. They may appear again, this blog is unpredictable. The point I was trying to make before my comments vanished, is I’m not against imaginary magicians (because they don’t exist), I’m not necessarily against the strange people who believe in the magic man, but I am against religions when they affect me, either directly or indirectly. For example, even you might not have liked the result of the heaven belief on 9/11/2001. I also don’t much care for Christian attacks on science and scientists. Christians spread lies to children about science. That does not affect me directly, but it does affect the future progress of the human race, and I’m against that. Perhaps you think I should ignore religious violence and religious stupidity that harms our country. You might be right. By myself I can’t change anything, but it’s difficult for me to be quiet about what looks to me like intentional lying about science, all because of ancient myths, like the stupidity of Genesis.
Especially annoying is the big business lying about science has become. There are people who make a living doing nothing but spreading lies about science. I am talking about the Discovery Institute which exists only to disguise God Did It to look like science, and they do nothing but lie, lie, and lie. All this just to make money from gullible people. They don’t care what harm they cause to science education and human progress, they only want to make easy money. This immoral behavior, constant lying, makes religions difficult to ignore.
A whole lot of nonsense being spouted here including some Freudian analysis. An agnostic is indeed without knowledge however this does not imply a lack of intellect rather an admission of humility. Agnostics did not arrive at this conclusion because of some silly Freudain-style father complex nor any other psycho babble. Our brain structure combined with socio-enviro determines our level of scepticism, gullibility, and desire for certainity etc — all character traits which determine our life choices.
wow it worked this time
“an admission of humility”
And if somebody said he could not be sure whether or not there is a tooth fairy, would that be an admission of humility?
I just don’t think agnostics have any value. Just because a large number of people believe there’s an invisible man in the sky, that does not mean it’s a virtue to pretend that’s possible.
There is actually more evidence for tooth fairies than there is for any god that was ever invented.
Querty
Your answer which makes no sense “There is actually more evidence for tooth fairies than there is for any god that was ever invented.”
The problem with you is, YOU don’t want God to be real, and that includes His Son Jesus Christ -
You are afraid that if you really looked at who God is, who is Son is, and studied Prophecy you wouldn’t be able to stand on that ‘cardboard box’ of yours anymore -
#47, TRS. I don’t know. See how simple now? Now, explain your answer to me. If you can’t answer the question as truth then the basis for everything else is suspect. Remember, this is what you base your life on, you should at least have it right. Don’t you agree? If you don’t think it’s an important question then IMHO, you have not examined your faith. Also, where did the “Dust” that made Adam came from? Was dust here BEFORE man? Can I teach your children about Islam and how M rode up to heaven on a horse? You are NOT letting your children decide, let’s get that straight, you are indoctrinating them into Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. I am sure you have lovely children, keep up the good work.
I am an atheist. I don’t believe in God or Allah or blah blah. I don’t, for one, call myself a bright nor have I heard ANYONE I associate with call themselves a bright. Some Christians are bright, some atheists are not so bright. I call myself an atheist because that’s the word that best represents what I am.
If it comforts anyone here, I don’t believe in Allah either! He/She is another sky pixie.
And as for “being mad at god”, sorry you just don’t have it right. I can’t dislike Santa for leaving me coal as a child… he’s not real. I can’t be made a Allah for being so cruel he’s not real.
#51: Actually, qwerty/ed, you are misinformed (once again). The “Brights” were actually founded three years ago by Mynga Futrell and Paul Geisert (not by Richard Dawkins), they are an actual organization (as the article the thread referenced pointed out), they have a website/group, and even the editor of Skeptics magazine considers himself to be a “Bright.” Of course, that all could have changed in the last few months (perhaps other atheists have realized that a constant barrage of arrogant, hateful, mocking, insulting, factless, fallacy-riddled speech is not the best rhetorical tool for getting one’s point across, but your mileage may vary), so it is entirely possible, I suppose, that many have subsequently discovered that it really was a bad idea all along.
oh boy.. qwerty, you’ve asked for it now, let the insanity begin! Heathen
The wrath of Jesus Christ and God and Ra and Allah and the holy ghost are upon you!
#47, TRS. I don’t know. See how simple now? Now, explain your answer to me. If you can’t answer the question as truth then the basis for everything else is suspect. Remember, this is what you base your life on, you should at least have it right. Don’t you agree? If you don’t think it’s an important question then IMHO, you have not examined your faith. Also, where did the “Dust” that made Adam came from? Was dust here BEFORE man? Can I teach your children about Islam and how M rode up to heaven on a horse? You are NOT letting your children decide, let’s get that straight, you are indoctrinating them into Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. I am sure you have lovely children, keep up the good work.
I am an atheist. I don’t believe in God or Allah or blah blah. I don’t, for one, call myself a bright nor have I heard ANYONE I associate with call themselves a bright. Some Christians are bright, some atheists are not so bright. I call myself an atheist because that’s the word that best represents what I am.
If it comforts anyone here, I don’t believe in Allah either! He/She is another sky pixie.
And as for “being mad at god”, sorry you just don’t have it right. I can’t dislike Santa for leaving me coal as a child… he’s not real. I can’t be made a Allah for being so cruel he’s not real.
So far I’ve been unable to post today. (Shrug)
A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
Re: #50 (Lynn),
I happily stand corrected - it is indeed Ed Veith, and not Lynn who lumps agnostics in with atheists.
I need to learn to read more carefully. I hate it when I do that.
“YOU don’t want God to be real”
When I saw the characters in bold in #55 I knew it was my friend Victoria.
I have to agree the world is a better place without some invisible bloodthirsty man in the sky who likes to murder babies like your man-made Bible God. However, it’s not a question of me not wanting this make-believe creature to be real. I just don’t believe in ancient myths.
Let’s compare the evidence for tooth fairies to the evidence for gods, for example, the Bible God.
Many children have noticed cash or coins under their pillow after leaving their baby tooth there. How else could that be explained unless there was a tooth fairy visiting during the night?
OK, that was not very strong evidence. The money could have been left by mom or dad. Still, it’s at least some evidence.
Now let’s look at all the evidence for the Bible God. Oh, right, there isn’t any evidence, is there? Not one shred of evidence.
Another little problem with this invisible man in the sky you call God, is this whole concept is nuts. There’s too many questions that can’t be answered, like what makes it invisible, what made it, what’s it for, and why would a sane person believe in this nonsense?
Childhood brainwashing and/or extreme gullibility would explain why people believe in it.
Perhaps the most important question is what is it for? Why should there be a god that isn’t needed for anything? This is why there’s a very high percentage of scientists who could never believe in the invisible man. The more knowledge a person has about science, the more likely he will understand magic is not necessary for anything. That’s all God is, just another word for magic.
TJ #56, ok, there’s an “actual organization”, they have a website, and they call each other “Brights”. Thanks for the information.
When I first heard of this Brights nonsense, I thought it was nuts. Apparently almost everyone else thought it was nuts, because I frequently visit atheist blogs and not once have I heard the word “Brights” being used. Never. Not ever once.
The word atheist works for me. In a perfect world the word atheist would not be necessary, because in a perfect world there would be no theists.
In #47 TRS asks the question that may never be answered, how did the universe begin.
TRS and other theists love this question because this is still a safe place to hide their magic man of the gaps.
The theists are saying “I don’t know the answer, therefore the answer is magic.”
The correct answers are “We don’t know yet, but let’s work on it” or “Who cares?”.
It’s pointless to answer questions with God Did It. There is no evidence for God Did It, and God Did It does not solve any problem. It’s just a lazy excuse to give up finding the real answer.
Actually, qwerty/ed, what I’ve found, in reading various atheists (notably, Harris) and seeing what the various atheists on blogs (who, in most cases, are simply repeating what the “Bright Bunch” says), is that evolution functions more like a “god of the gaps.” That is, when something cannot be explained according to naturalistic presuppositions, then the “evolution did it” mantra is carted out. Such a “lazy excuse” used to avoid “finding the real answer”, mixed in with a few statements of ridicule (the ol’ ad hominem approach) does wonders if one does not actually wish to engage in honest, critical thought. Such has been noted by atheistic colleagues of Dawkins: he does not actually wish to honestly engage the Christian religion, so he resorts to ad hominems, straw men, etc. to “boost” his argument (sound familiar). As I stated previously, it might sound good to the masses who eschew critical thought, but it lacks any real intellectual firepower.
Take your “magic man” and “tooth fairy” comments. They are nothing new (just warmed over examples of Russell’s “celestial teapot” and Dawkins’ “flying spaghetti monster”), and they are bad analogies and straw men to boot. Simply stated, being in these fictitious things does not provide the epistemological, metaphysical, and ethical presuppositions for making sense of the world. To make a comparison with God is, once again, not only fallacious but also intellectually lazy.
Finally, before casting stones at theists, you might want to take into account that the atheistic viewpoint (even adding in the agnostics) is a decidedly minority viewpoint. In other words, taken from a strictly statistical perspective (if we want to be “scientfic”), yours is the anomaly in terms of world views. Now, if some such as Dawkins wished to be consistent, it might be hypothesized that atheism is some sort of mental disorder that needed to be researched in order to find a cure (at least the possibility would need to be considered). What happens instead? More insults. What do I expect from you in response? The same.
I am still a Christian in spite of all the supposed logic against it because you can’t argue with personal experience. When you convince me that 40 years of seeing answered prayer, changed lives and healed bodies, receiving comfort in my lowest moment and pulling off feats that required talents and character that I don’t have, didn’t happen, then I might start to listen to your “logic”.
sounds like I believe in kBellis more than kBellis does. I am going to pray to god that I have the ability to finish up this post and show the world with the strongest proof ever that god answers prayers. Now, I just hope this blog supports it.
See, she does exist. Proof positive! Stupid Atheists.
Kbells, please notice that unlike Scott, I spelled your name correctly.
You are giving credit to the wrong place for “healed bodies”. It’s not magic that makes people healthy again. This a major problem god-believers have. They are way too quick to claim a miracle happened. They would be better off if they understood there have never been any miracles and there never will be any miracles. There’s a reason for everything and magic is not one of those reasons.
Another problem god-believers have, which Scott was talking about, is this prayer nonsense. It’s just talking to yourself. It’s usually just a waste of time, but sometimes it can be harmful, because people should be looking for real solutions to problems, instead of hoping for a magical solution.
kBells, please forgive me, you name is like an optical illusion to me for some reason. I look at it and see an “i” there, like an oasis in the de