More Active Posts
Front Page
Roe v. Wade irrelevant for “women of means”
 |
 87 Comments |
Outlawing abortion would be devastating for poor women, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said. But according to Kristin Hansen of Care Net, it’s abortion itself that’s devastating.
On October 21, Ginsburg said she doesn’t think the court will overturn Roe v. Wade, but if it did let each state make its own abortion laws, not much would change. “Women of means” would still be able to travel out-of-state to get abortions, but poor women wouldn’t have any options.
Or would they? Hansen said, “Justice Ginsburg may not be aware of the support network.” Care Net helps 1,100 crisis pregnancy centers care for 350,000 women a year. There are 2,300 crisis pregnancy centers nationwide and Hansen said those centers will stick around, whether abortion is legal or not: “Women will always need pregnancy help.”
 |
Topic: Editor's Choice, Front Page, The Nation |  |
Email a friend |
 |
Keywords: abortions, abortion_laws, care-net, crisis_pregnancy_centers, pregnant_women, pro-life, roe_v_wade, ruth_bader_ginsburg |  |
RSS 2.0 |
 |
Both comments and pings are currently closed. |  |
Share this: |
“Women of means” would still be able to travel out-of-state to get abortions, but poor women wouldn’t have any options.
One option poor women would have is illegal and unsafe abortions and many would die because of it, which is something the fundies, who want to stick their noses into other people’s private lives, don’t care about. This why not minding your own business is extremely immoral. The fundies don’t even know what morality is, which is no surprise considering they get their fake moral values from a man-made monster who murders babies for fun (the Noah’s Ark myth, etc.).
“This why” should be “This is why”.
This is why not minding your own business is extremely immoral.
Dear Qwerty, abortion is always unsafe. The baby almost always dies, the mother is at risk for all kinds of complications, whether she’s in a hospital setting or not. So abortion isn’t good any way you look at it.
But what really annoys me is that nearly everyone seems to accept that fornication is normal and okay. Why do we accept that? If people stopped doing that, abortionists of all kinds would go out of business. Encouraging men to live pure and stay with and support their wives and children is best for everyone.
JoanneB,
you have spoken the one statemt about promiscuity and abortion which it is now so unPC to say aloud.
But I have heard of at least one woman whose husband was divorcing her. She already had three kids and discovered she was pregnant with #4. She had it aborted.
If the churches could truly reach out to such women with a ministry, how many lives would be changed? Yes, the church should work to decrease the divorce rate in the USA (esp in the so-called Bible Belt where the rates are so high). To save the lives of unborn children, the churches might have to cut back on lavish palatial buildings and decrease the number of paid pastoral staff. That abortion is often chosen as the best alternative is really an indictment against the total absence of alternatives in too many areas.
Fornication IS normal and IS ok. It’s you guys that can take a beautiful act, and turn it into something nasty.
Now if anyone really had a concern for the women, they would support sex education. If they had a concern for the child, they would support healthcare and insurance for children.
Instead, they stand on a soapbox and say, “Abortion is wrong” and when the child is born, they say, “That’s not my kid. You made it, you take care of it”. I just don’t get it.
Bill Cosby stated that the number of blacks aborted ea year equalled the population of about 5 of our largest midwest states.
Odd how advocacy groups like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference dont or wont address this crisis.
The crisis pregnancy center movement is a powerful and growing way the church is helping women who think they have no choice to see others. Care Net, Heartbeat, etc., are networks of centers where women in a crisis can go and get compassionate care, material aid (privately donated) and even limited obstetrics care like ultrasounds. Many of the centers offer sexual integrity courses and post abortion counseling. The ministry is spectacular in how it helps women and the men in their lives. Bravo to Ms. Hansen and her colleagues at Care Net.
You “don’t get it” because you don’t WANT to get it, RDean.
The fact of the matter is, most abortions are obtained by unmarried couples (or married couples who don’t want to be “bothered” by a child).
If these single folks (including married folks who wish to continue acting like “single” people with no responsibilities) would just “keep it in their pants,” there would be very little demand for abortionists in the first place.
Sorry, that’s where eduction comes in. Something “your” people are against.
“Education” is exactly the right answer… but “education” is different than the information public schools give kids. What young folks need is to be taught to have structured, disciplined lives characterized by loving relationships and moral, ethical conduct. Good parents do that with two ingredients; love and boundaries - like don’t have sex outside marriage, and… don’t murder the unborn.
“One option poor women would have is illegal and unsafe abortions and many would die because of it…”
Qwerty, this statement is extremely deceptive. The coat-hanger argument is little more than an urban legend. What’s your source on this? How many would die? How do you know?
“This is why not minding your own business is extremely immoral.”
Well, since you’re the first commenter here, you must be the most immoral one among us. Christians think abortion is wrong and should be prevented. Mind your own business.
As if every single law on the books doesn’t poke the state’s nose into the private lives of private citizens. You can’t beat your children or neglect to feed them; or else the government will come in and take the kids away. You can’t cheat on your income taxes–a relatively victimless crime if there ever was one. You don’t really believe that it’s “extremely” (as opposed to “a little bit”? Says who?) immoral not to mind one’s own business. You’re just too lazy to come up with a convincing way to defend abortion.
All your talk of “morality” is a pathetic joke, anyway.
Women who have abortions justly suffer the wrath of God if they die during the procedure. They shouldn’t even be allowed to use sterilized equipment.
Whew! Stephen. That’s provocative. I’m really glad God didn’t vaporize Adam on the spot (He is indeed just, and that would have been just…but not consistent with His character of love and mercy). I recommend anybody who (actually) cares to watch the Fox News special on abortion tonight at 9 EDT. I believe they will show abortion vulnerable women as humans in big, big trouble. They need our help. Oh, and their babies are also humans in trouble, and if mom chooses abortion - BIG BIG BIG trouble.
Stephen (#12): Women who have abortions justly suffer the wrath of God if they die during the procedure.
Finally some honesty. I feel certain many or most fundies who want to force their fake moral values on everyone else, don’t really care how many of these desperate women die. They deserve to die according to fundie logic, and I thank you Stephen for at least being honest about it.
Hi QWERTY- Sounds like you value the lives of those women. True?
Fundies, who never bother to think about the consequences of their obsession with other peoples’ private lives, probably have never thought about the simple fact that some women, who abort their unborn babies, just might not make very good mothers, and the result is eventually more people wind up in prison and/or poverty.
Hi mltamoran (#15), I really don’t care that much about people I don’t know, but I don’t like the idea of people dying because some fundie nosebodies can’t mind their own business.
QWERTY #17. And we as christians cannot believe the smugness with which people like you can codone the deaths of a million unborn children per year.
I’m really glad God didn’t vaporize Adam on the spot (He is indeed just, and that would have been just…but not consistent with His character of love and mercy).
mltamoran, This is off-topic but I’m just wondering about what all your religious beliefs are. I know you’re a smart person, wrong about theism, but still very smart and very educated. I’m just wondering, do you believe there was an Adam? Do you believe any of the fairy tales in the Bible? Do you deny we share common ancestors with all other life? You believe in the Resurrection? You talked about God having a character of love and mercy. I noticed the (man-made) OT Bible God is a brutal savage. Any comments? You believe the myth of God’s genocide in the Noah’s Ark children’s story? As you know I’m convinced all religious beliefs are myths, and harmful to the people who believe them. The reason I ask is, I’m wondering how much of this garbage a much smarter than average Christian can accept. Thanks.
Countryboy, I’m actually very much against the idea of abortion which is most definitely murder. I’m just much more against the idea of people who stick their noses into other people’s private lives. I don’t care what people do in private. If somebody gets an abortion I don’t want to know about it. People have reasons for doing things only they could know about. Fundies don’t care about those reasons. They just want to shove their fake morality into everyone else’s faces.
Once again I would like to thank Stephen in #12 for his honesty. His “Women who have abortions justly suffer the wrath of God if they die during the procedure” is likely what most fundies agree with but would never admit. Stephen’s honesty proved to me fundies really are the most immoral people on earth.
QWERTY- glad you asked. I am a born again Christian, and I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God… so, yeah- I believe. More importantly, I believe in and have a personal relationship with Jesus. The deal is that I never, ever would have bought any of it on the basis of my rational abilities until three things happened. First- I lived enough life (like 38 years) to understand that my reasoned, rational self was not all there was to me. I had this, well, spiritual side that experienced joy and hurt and was messed up. Second- I became deeply dissatisfied with all the stuff life had given to me - career, status, loot, wife, kids, etc. I thought- “It must mean more than just this.” Third- and this is the real deal - I had a personal encounter with HIM- Jesus that is. He is real, QWERTY.
QWERTY- Now as to His character- The OT God is the God of justice, but He also shows His merciful side. Every time He whacks the Israelites, He allows a remnant to respond. he wants them to return to a relationship with Him. then, he sends his son to do that for you and me… establish that relationship. I understand exactly where you are- how do you think I thought until the year I turned 39.
Thanks for your reply mltamoran.
Does it bother you that accepting the Bible requires the denial of massive scientific evidence for evolution, or can you live with that?
I had a personal encounter with HIM- Jesus that is.
If it was personal, then it’s none of my business. I just hope you don’t mind if I think you were hallucinating, or perhaps you were having a dream and thought you were awake.
I have heard this “personal encounter” stuff before, and it sounds a bit nutty to me. Everyone has bad days now and then, but usually people don’t have visions of people who have been dead for 20 centuries. Thanks again for the information.
Dissatisfied with career, status, loot, wife, kids? If you don’t like your loot, please feel free to send it my way.
My style of writing is a little different than qwerty’s, but I think we are similar in basic beliefs.
When talking about a difficult issue, I try and clarify my thoughts and my writing before I say much. I am close to atheist; you can call me that. I am against murder; I don’t believe people have souls. Over historical time some atheists (such as Communists) were careless about taking human life. Over historical time, some religious believers, including Christians, have been willing to kill for their beliefs. I don’t think self-righteousness is appropriate for either group.
I think letting children be born should be encouraged. I think adoption should be encouraged for parents who do not want to have or are not ready to have babies.
I don’t think abortion should be outlawed or criminalized. I don’t believe an abortion is taking an “unborn soul.” I think people on both sides should look for practical compromises and steps that will be likely to preserve the most lives. Positive steps (though very difficult) will save more lives of fetuses than criminalization.
For example, late-term abortion is not a good place for people who want to preserve the right to abortion to exist to set up their defense lines.
On the other hand, when anti-abortion “pro-life” people oppose birth control pills and morning after pills, they are choosing a silly place to fight their battle.
I’m still at 99% incoherent on this topic, but one seeks answers a percent at a time.
The demand for morality permeates the thread. The strategy to lower the abortion rate, at least on this thread, is to rely on moral persuassion, to put it politely. Moral conservatism suffers from its endorsement of the neo-con anti-gov’t attitude in economic policy. This results in a dysfunctional policy of arguing gov’t interference in ensuring children arrive alive yet a do nothing attitude to ensure they stay alive.
Demanding that people keep their pants on is so divorced from reality it deserves little respect as solution. And the constant complaints of public education’s role is also divorced from the reality of the health curriculum. In the last two years, I have consistently educated 14 year olds that abstience is indeed the best method of birth control and disease prevention, however I did not restrict myself to that message. Before relying on ancedotal stories, check your state’s health education curriculum I’m sure you can find it on the internet.
Qwerty,
Do you ever take the time to actually back up your claims? You continually insult Christians for their faith, but you never tell WHY they are wrong. Look at a person like Random Name. He is much more polite, and provides reasons for his beliefs, and so is much more deserving of respect and consideration. Someone just insulting others won’t be taken seriously.
As far as abortion, there is a simple solution that no one seems to ever take into consideration. Don’t become pregnant in the first place if you aren’t planning on having kids. Its as simple as that.
“you never tell WHY they are wrong.”
I’ve explained why theists are wrong many times. It’s because God is just another word for magic, and magic is for children, not for sane adults. The theists who pretend they know all about their man-made god creature are just making wild guesses. It’s all just wishful thinking. They never have any real evidence for anything. Theists also have the bad habit of denying evidence for scientific facts. They are proof religious beliefs are good for nothing but making people ignorant.
“Look at a person like Random Name. He is much more polite, and provides reasons for his beliefs, and so is much more deserving of respect and consideration.”
And he has accomplished what? Has anyone here figured out how stupid their religion is thanks to Random? No, of course not. Theism is an incurable disease. There is hope for very young people, if the brainwashing was not too intense, but for adults their lives are permanently wasted. It’s too late to do anything for them.
SAWGUNNER,
Perhaps you presumed that the readers on this thread are uninformed. That’s apparently why you presumed the unsubstanticated myth that churches do not often “reach out” to women with a ministry to decrease the divorce rate in the USA. I think you are uninformed about churches in the USA.
Furthermore, I wonder if you would say that to help more people, hospitals should “cut back on lavish palatial buildings and decrease the number of paid staff?”
Buildings are not the problem, and in most cases, neither are the churches.
A lot more Christian groups are addressing this crisis than you seem to be aware of.
reach out” to women with a ministry to decrease the divorce rate in the USA.
why not reach out to men?
#26 & #27
Please keep in mind that we are an atheist cop team. I’m the “bad cop”; qwerty is the “good cop”; we never let anyone know about this arrangement; it would lose all its effectiveness.
Go ahead; admit you’re guilt; everybody is guilty; we’ll see to it that they go easy on you.
“your guilt”–I have this homonym problem, but if I pray more I will overcome it. Sorry for randomizing the thread.
#29
Watch it with all the reaching. Keep your hands where we can see them.
Look at a person like Random Name. He is much more polite, and provides reasons for his beliefs,
Time to throw in the towel the evangelicals here actually think you beleive in something even after years of posting.
Qwerty, for the record my post at #12 was a entirely insincere fundie parody — I figured with Random leaving soon someone else has to step into his smartypants shoes, no? Though I agree that the attitude I facetiously displayed is the unspoken concept that underpins much of the anti-abortion rhetoric, my personal position tends to mirror your own in this area, so, while I appreciate your outspoken thankfulness for my post, your appreciation for its open honesty appears rather misplaced in this instance.
Qwerty, apply your arguments about abortion to the proposition that we should be able to kill our two year olds. Incoherent horror, no?
We are not trying to impose our morality on you any more than we would be if you were determined to kill your toddler.
The argument that all fundies prefer women suffer and die is also ludicrous. Why do we have all those free crisis pregnancy centers, then? I did not, for instance urgently hope for the death of Susan Smith. But I did urgently wish that she hadn’t killed her kids, and thought about what we could do to prevent future such murders.
Stephen: Qwerty, for the record my post at #12 was a entirely insincere fundie parody
Oh no, not again! On this blog it’s almost impossible to recognize parody. Sometimes I think a person is joking when they are completely serious. Other times I think a person is being serious when they are really joking. I noticed even my friend mltamoran thought you were serious, so your parody was very effective. Anyway thanks for clearing that up.
The argument that all fundies prefer women suffer and die is also ludicrous.
Marie, anyone who favors making abortion illegal has to know there will be desperate women in poverty who will get an illegal and maybe unsafe abortion anyway and some of those women will die. This is a fact that can’t be denied and the fundies could care less about those deaths. If they did care about this loss of life and/or damage to their health, the fundies would mind their own bloody business and not interfere with people’s private lives.
#33: “Random leaving soon”
I didn’t know that. That would be too bad. I hope this is just a rumor and not true. Every Christian blog needs at least one wishy washy agnostic.
Lately Random has been calling himself “close to atheist” which is a bit of an improvement from agnostic. I’m glad to see he’s making some progress.
Sawgunner - 4
No harm, no foul, Sir. That is, if you are indeed a “Sir”. Though even if you’re not I would then suppose you to be a committed feminist who might appreciate my recognition of your possession of a tone which has been traditionally identified with assertive masculinity, while of course coincidentally bemoaning the fact that society remains so ingrained in such patriarchal stereotypes that I would presume you first to be male as a result of your employing such a tone. Of course if you were really good the point you’d object to most strongly would be my suggestion that being a feminist and a male were mutually exclusive properties.
For the record, I Sawgunner fund and donate to all types of proLife ministries. I’m not involved really in any life-preserving ministry right now if you exclude the wounded troops I care for at this Aid Station.
I will continue to believe that surely somewhere in our great nation there is a church with a bloated internal bureaucracy (often evidenced by a top heavy staff) and that church could and should do more to publicize alternatives to abortion. Often times this need be little more than having a lending closet with cribs, diapers and other new mom supplies. MOPS is a great organization for its outreach to teen mothers. Some of them wind up being saved through the MOPS ministry.
As for me, I think when a church or its leaders is judged by He who Judges all, there will be some hard questions to answer. With the money your fellowship used to hire 3 new full-time staffers do you know how many CareNet centers you could have funded? Do you know how a home for Unwed mothers could have used the money you spent on the Singles ski trip retreat? I certainly dont fault churches for big buildings set among well-manicured suburban campii. For all I know Joel Olsteen’s church could be a huge supporter of Harris County Carenet services.
qwerty
I remember you saying once you were once a programmer.
Do you know Cobol and Fortran? I know someone who works for a very large,well-known company which has been frantically looking for programmers who know legacy programming languages to do some contract work in our area for a small company they bought out.
I don’t know for sure if they any spots still open, but I would be glad to forward your resume to my contact.
I have often said that I keep information private that people send me in email, and there are people here on wmb who can attest to that–both atheists and evangelical Christians alike–but I referred them to you as references, I would be violating my vow would I not? It’s a real Catch-22.
In any case, if you are interested, email me at eman_modnar@yahoo.com
“Do you know Cobol?”
Yes, I consider myself to be an expert at this obsolete language.
Thanks for your kind offer, but even though I am unemployed and close to bankruptcy, I have no desire to move to another location. Also, for personal reasons, I have no desire to work for the next 8 months. Thanks again Random. When it gets to where I haven’t had anything to eat in a week, I might talk to you about that job.
#20 QWERTY
“Countryboy, I’m actually very much against the idea of abortion which is most definitely murder. I’m just much more against the idea of people who stick their noses into other people’s private lives.”
If you were a christian I would say you are wrong for choosing degrees of sin, sticking your nose in other peoples’ business is worse than murder. But since you are not a christian then I have to wonder about your choice of nosyness being worse than murder.
Qwerty writes: “I have heard this “personal encounter” stuff before, and it sounds a bit nutty to me. Everyone has bad days now and then, but usually people don’t have visions of people who have been dead for 20 centuries.”
Paul wasn’t having a “bad” day on the road to Damascus, as far as I know. He was just on the road, walking or riding a horse, whatever, on the way to kill Christians. Of course, Jesus hadn’t been dead and risen for 20 centuries back then, just a short time. You have bits and pieces with your “science.” Read just the other day that they found a “cold spot” out there is space and don’t know what it is. The truth is there’s a lot we all don’t know.
HRW writes: “Demanding that people keep their pants on is so divorced from reality it deserves little respect as solution.”
Demanding? Really? We’ve “demanded” it? I don’t think so. I think the Christians here ADVOCATE that men and women respect each other enough to want a committed relationship. There’s a big difference between sex and love, and sex combined with love is better than plain old sex. This is what this Christian wants young people to be taught, that they give themselves time to grow up, and get to know themselves as well as the opposite sex, find someone to spend their life with, without cheapening themselves. Humans in “heat” is a little degrading, and it shows a distinct lack of self-respect.
#47
Bob, I am not qwerty, and I’m not sure that he appreciates my sticking my nosy nose in here.
I understand your point. However, have you ever read a book by George Orwell, titled 1984?
It has a lot to say about where “nosyness” can lead.
Although that book never came true, exactly, there is a country called North Korea, which gave it the old “college trial” so to speak.
Christians like to argue for “absolutes,” and it might be nice if absolutes really existed. But people such as qwerty and I do not believe there are “moral absolutes” decreed by God. (There may be physical absolutes of science, but that’s a different discussion.)
If we are correct, we live in a world where there are degrees of sin, and the definition of “murder” is indeed a slippery slope.
To some extent the “subtext” of the arguments presented by Christians here is, “A world without moral absolutes is too horrible to contemplate; I won’t accept it.”
Whether we like something or not is not particularly good evidence or argumentation.
I’ll use an analogy. (Analogy is not an especially good argument either, but I will use it anyway, as I am not a very good debater.)
Christians say to atheists, “Unless you accept Christ you will go to Hell and experience eternal torment.”
As an almost atheist, I consider this concept as…well…to be frank…disgusting. A Christian is likely to say something like, “It doesn’t matter if you like it or not, a loving God will send you to Hell unless you accept his Son’s sacrifice.”
By the same token as an almost-atheist (qwerty likes that better than radical agnostic, so I am humoring him this Sunday morning), when I say,
“There are probably no ‘absolute moral values,’” whether you like it or not doesn’t make much difference to its validity.
NJL
I was replying to Outkast who certainly seems to be demanding. When one comments if only they keep their pants on, they are in fact drawing a distinction between the deserving and undeserving as in they deserved to be in this situation. And when “they deserve it”, we are under no obligation. This attitude permeates the evangelical right’s attitude towards social welfare and is one of the reasons they have very little credibility.
#42: “your choice of nosyness being worse than murder.”
If somebody tried to interfere with my private life, I would most definitely not rule out murder to solve the problem.
The crime of “not minding your own business” is very serious. It really can be called the worst possible crime.
Nobody likes a nosebody and nobody cares when a nosebody drops dead.
nosebody (noun) : An extremely prying, officious or inquisitive person
#44 Random Name
You know all there is to know about Jesus, God and substitutionary atonement from a knowledge poiint of view. The next thing is to try to understand it from an experiential point of view. Even though you do not believe and have no desire to believe, have you asked God to prove to you that He is real? We christians believe that faith is a gift of God. I am asking that God give you that gift of faith. Why don’t you tell him that you also want that gift of faith? Try it, please.
Bob,
No.
Even though I participate at an evangelical Christian web site, I do not visit here seeking God.
At one time in my life, I viewed proselytizing with a very negative attitude, and I now am more relaxed about this compulsive behavior on the part of Christians, I still don’t consider it my favorite aspect of their behavior.
Although I do not go on as much as qwerty does about Christianity and its beliefs, I do have some deep distaste for those beliefs, to the extent that if the consequence is that I will burn in Hell, I think that is what a person with a conscience would choose.
Although I have “met” many pleasant, likable, and admirable people at worldmagblog, the overall impression the evangelical community makes on me from participating here does not make me think, “I want to be just like them.”
Roger Williams, my favorite Christian, at the end of his life became a seeker who would join no church. Tim Phillips (JT), one of the Christians here I like and admire, has criticized this aspect of Roger Williams, as if I should consider his behavior in this regard as a fault or flaw.
I am reading Roger’s Collected Works at the moment. Although it’s hard to read, and there’s too much Scripture quoting and Old Christian writers’ quoting for my taste, I think Roger’s heart was in the right place. If he had lived another hundred years or so, he might have wandered into being a Radical Agnostic as well.
But his mileage probably differed from mine.
I think I just althoughed the thread.
#3, it is your god’s will. Rejoice in it.
This question was addressed to Random: “have you asked God to prove to you that He is real?”
This is like saying “You want proof for god? Just ask god. It will prove it is real.”
I’m trying to figure out why or how an atheist, who does not believe in any gods, is going to ask a god that doesn’t exist to prove it exists.
Random, perhaps you could call 411 and ask for the phone number of the imaginary god creature. You could tell directory assistance you need to ask the imaginary god if it exists.
The problem with theists is they are so god-soaked they don’t have the ability to understand an atheist considers their god to be an insane idea, even worse than a belief in the tooth fairy.
Asking an atheist “have you asked God to prove to you that He is real?” makes no sense. What is it with theists? They seem to have no understanding of simple logic. Of course if they did understand simple logic they wouldn’t be theists.
Bob at #47: have you asked God to prove to you that He is real?
Have you asked Allah to prove to you that he is real?
Zeus?
Thor?
The Great Spirit?
If not, why not? Shouldn’t you test all of the claimed gods before you settle on one?
Or did you already know what God you believed in before you asked God to prove himself?
No brainwashed person chooses which god to believe in. That choice is made by the people who do the brainwashing, usually the parents. That’s why, almost always, children of religious parents believe in the exact same god the parents believe in.
Birth control is readily available in the US–they even give it away at a junior high school in Maine. Using it is one way very easy and simple way to reduce the abortion rate, and is certainly cheaper than even a first term vacuum abortion. If Judge Ginsburg thinks birth control is only within the means of wealthy women, she is sadly mistaken, and should review some of her own Supreme Court votes.
Sometimes a public school will illegally help the parents brainwash their children, especially when the public school is in Gravette, Arkansas.
This September, Scott Nigeman withdrew his daughter from Duffy Elementary School because the elementary school allows students to participate in a weekly Bible class.
Scott Nigeman himself appears on the “Bible classes in the Bible belt” thread, using the blog name “snigema”, in comments #79, #80, & #87.
HRW: I have heard the “keep your pants on” phrase before and have even used it. Not that had I known what Mr. Clinton was up to I wouldn’t have “demanded” that he keep his pants on, up or zipped while in the office I as a taxpayer pay for.
There are consequences to actions, and I suspect that is what is meant here. The truth is, if you don’t engage in certain activities, you won’t end up pregnant, and if you don’t end up pregnant, you won’t have to decide what to do. I was just reading elsewhere in my e-mail that in Missouri or Michigan, there is a statute requiring that abortion clinics be equipped to handle situations when they go medically wrong. Planned Parenthood, who along with Justice Ginsburg, Hillary Clinton and a host of others, claim they want “safe” abortions, but they don’t want to pay the money to equip their facilities. They are suing to keep the statute from being enforced. No one who has an abortion should be put in the position of losing her life because Planned Parenthood just can’t handle the medical necessities, now should they? Isn’t it entities like Planned Parenthood who are saying they deserve what happens to them? What about the doctor who continued the abortion despite the woman saying no, and was really sucking the woman’s intestines out? Or the abortionist who told the ambulance dispatcher not to use a siren?
No Christian here wants harm to come to the mother OR the child. That’s what you seem to fail to comprehend.
Michelle (#53), Judge Ginsburg said abortion (not birth control) would be more available for wealthy women if abortion was illegal.
I would add poor women would get an abortion anyway, but people with money would be able to get a safe abortion. Meanwhile a desperate woman with no money might die or suffer health problems from an unsafe abortion. This is why it would be immoral to make abortion illegal. Making abortion illegal will not end abortions, and will only end safe abortions and cause more deaths, usually the victim will be a poor desperate woman. If the fundies really had any moral values, they would mind their own business and stay out of other peoples’ private lives.
hrw: You’re full of rubbish, as usual.
When I stated above that people need to “keep their pants on” I was not demanding anything at all — I was merely offering a solution to the problem of unplanned pregnancy (especially among the unmarried), when it oh-so-typically results in the “easy” option of murder/abortion.
qwerty: If the SCOTUS decided to overturn Roe v. Wade the issue would simply return to the control of the states. The income of the person deciding on murder/abortion would not matter.
SAWGUNNER - 39
Are you in the military?
Where I live there are groups which give women a place to live if they will not abort their child. There are choices, many people take women to live in their homes until the birth. They can then stay there until they are able to return to work. Some keep their babies, and others adopt them out.
Much is done to publicize these services with free medical care as well.
All sorts of supplies for a newborn is offered. I don’t think you realize how much is done to help these women. It is unkind of you to take aim at all the workers who do all they can from the churches of which they are affiliated with.
SAWGUNNER, this is what MOPS is all about, its not just for teen mothers. It IS:
“MOPS stands for Mothers of Preschoolers. MOPS International exists to meet the needs of every mom - urban, suburban and rural moms, stay-at-home and working moms, teen, single and married moms - moms with different lifestyles who all share a similar desire to be the very best moms they can be! MOPS recognizes that the years from infancy through kindergarten are foundational in a mother-child relationship and are filled with unique needs.”
http://www.mops.org/printer_friendly.php?pageid=70&srctype=print&src=70
SAWGUNNER - - - singles need to come together as well as any other age group. Maybe you don’t understand, or you aren’t AWARE, but those who go on these ’ski retreats’ pay their own way. Singles need to get away from their everyday life as well as anyone else. Being with other Christian people their own age is a great way ‘fellowship’ and grow in the LORD. These ‘retreats’ are a time to share, to grow in the LORD, and ski too.
You seem to make it up as you go along - Churches hire people as they need them. Very few churches are negligent, spending money on things which aren’t relevant. Maybe you should POINT OUT the Churches who you are accusing of miss-spending funds, rather than taking your ‘designer brush’ and painting the entire Church of which all Born Again Believers are part of.
#55: The truth is, if you don’t engage in certain activities, you won’t end up pregnant, and if you don’t end up pregnant, you won’t have to decide what to do.
That is true, and so we need not worry about those who do that.
But that deflects the point. What people should do, and what they do, are often not the same thing.
What about the doctor who continued the abortion despite the woman saying no, and was really sucking the woman’s intestines out? Or the abortionist who told the ambulance dispatcher not to use a siren?
Do you have links to information about these cases?
#50 QWERTY
I ask you to disprove God by asking Him to give you faith. Tell Him you don’t have faith and don’t want it. But ask Him to prove that He is real by giving you faith. If He is not, in fact, real then nothing will happen.
By the way, for all us christians; Aslan is not a tame lion. He does what He wills.
#60: And if Qwerty does that and reports back to you that nope, no faith came, you’ll say he didn’t do it sincerely, or he got faith but is denying it, or that God for some whimsical reason chose not to grant it.
No matter what, your belief will not be challenged, because your mind is already well made up. And nothing will be proved at all.
So what is your point?
good solution outkast and when the child is born what is your solution
“I ask you to disprove God by asking Him to give you faith.”
There’s a few problems. There ain’t no gods. Also, even if there was some god idiot, how do I ask it anything? You got god’s phone number?
It’s really fair to ask where did you get this crazy idea anyone can ask a god anything?
I’m trying to guess why you would say something as crazy as your quote above. Perhaps you think when people talk to themselves, what the god nuts call praying, means there’s some communication with man-made god monsters. Whatever, it’s all just insanity to me. The world will be a better place when it’s rid of religious stupidity.
By the way, faith is another word for insanity. It’s thanks to faith we had the 9/11 attacks, and it’s thanks to faith we are in two wars right now we will never win. It’s thanks to faith more than half our god-soaked population doesn’t understand simple scientific facts like evolution. Faith, which is the process of not thinking, makes people insane and stupid.
Justice Ginsberg is right - the overturning of Roe vs Wade will be meaningless to women of means, and it will be the poor who will pay the price. Women of means will travel to wherever they have to to get an abortion or pay a doctor under the table to perform one.
Of course, even if Roe vs Wade were overturned, it would simply fall to the 50 states to fight it out. There is no doubt that it would remain legal in many states. Even if, by some strange occurrence, it were to be outlawed in all 50 states, you would see clinics sprouting up on the border of Canada and Mexico. In todays global world you’re never going to stop it.
Naturally, I would say that the “anti-choice” viewpoint is what really hurts women (and men). It forces a 12 year-old girl who’s been raped by her father or some other family member to bear a child. It forces a woman who’s been gang-raped to carry a child. It forces a teenage girl to drop out of school and go on welfare. It forces poor women into even more desperate situations. It denies women the fundamental right to control her body. It criminalizes health-care workers. It creates an atmosphere where physicians and health-care workers live in fear of being killed or injured.
One must hope that saner heads will prevail on the issue of abortion, and come together around the idea of preventing unwanted pregnancy in the first place by making birth control so readily available that people will automatically chose it before they have sex. Of course, that will entail getting over the idea that teenagers and single people are going to have sex no matter what.
#64 QWERTY
“…how do I ask it anything?”
An easy way is to read aloud what I wrote.
#62 STEVEG
I already did answer that question in post #61.
I trust in God do do right, that is, His will.
“An easy way is to read aloud what I wrote.”
I get it. Your invisible friend listens to everything all the 7 billion human apes say.
Why should anyone who is not insane believe your garbage?
I don’t know Anlir, I posit that if Roe v. Wade gets overturned, the following “cases” will continue to abort:
- teens whose parents are worried their daughter will end up “ruining her life” by carrying a pregnancy to term. The parents will arrange something, probably with a private sympathetic ob/gyn.
- adults who have impregnated minors will see to it the evidence gets erased. The adults in this case will pay for it, probably finding it on the seamy side.
- adulterers trying to cover up evidence of their adultery will find a place to do so, and pay for it.
- married couples terrified of having an abnormal child will find it and pay for it.
- and Christians trying to cover up evidence of their fornication will find it and pay for it.
I base these opinions on the three years worth of clients I saw during my tenure at a CPC.
But there will be fewer of each, much fewer. The social stigma, the plain old illegality, the expense, and the difficulty of finding an abortionist will come into play.
________________________________
The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
Total Abortions since 1973 - United States.
________________________________
__________________________
The number again for abortions in the United States since 1973
FORTY EIGHT MILLIION, FIVE HUNDRED EIGHTY NINE THOUSAND, NINE HUNDRED NINETY THREE -
Little tiny helpless children, who were murdered by those who didn’t want them -
__________________________
_________________________________________
NO ONE can JUSTIFY the killing of all
these tiny helpless infants.
_________________________________________
Victoria, clearly your god created those to be aborted. After all, it is his will. No one knows the reason why, after all, God works in mysterious ways.
That’s 48,589,993 people who would have been raised by mothers who didn’t want them, mothers who likely would not have been very good mothers. Most of them would now be in poverty or in prison. The taxpayers would have to feed them. To be honest, I’m glad they’re dead.
There’s almost 7 billion people in the world, and despite abortion, starvation, and wars, there’s more billions on the way. If the herd is not thinned out by abortion, there will just be more starvation and more wars. Land to live on is limited. Another problem is there are so many humans, other species are being wiped out. The Christians with their fake morals who want to stick their noses into other people’s private lives, don’t care, that if they had their way, there would be more poverty, more starvation, more wars, more crime, more prisons, and more species extinct because they were crowded out by the rapidly growing human animals. Christians don’t care about any of this because they have no moral values at all.
QWERTY
Don’t you realize that by posts like #74 & 75 make you unreadable for many?
Qwerty,
Please drop this line of argument. Maybe turn it around to concentrate on the challenges and responsibilities facing those who want to spare the lives of unwanted people. But bag the abortion as a solution to poverty and crime thing. You don’t want to go there or do that.
Take care,
SG
qwerty (#74) writes:
“To be honest, I’m glad they’re dead.”
Atheism is much like the potion consumed by Dr. Jekyle. It eventually turned him into the monstrous Mr. Hyde.
qwerty, meet your friend, Mr. Hyde. You seem to have much in common.
Freakonomics has an interesting chapter on the side effects of Roe vs. Wade which may interest qwerty
“But bag the abortion as a solution to poverty and crime thing.”
Why? Do you seriously think 48,589,993 unwanted babies would all grow up to be normal citizens, never committing any crimes, all getting a good education and good jobs despite the fact they had no father and a mother who didn’t want them and had no money?
Try to be realistic. There are consequences to everything and those consequences shouldn’t be ignored. The people who want to force women to have babies they don’t want never bother to think about what’s going to happen to these unwanted children. It’s crazy to pretend the result will not be more crime, more violence, more wars, more poverty, and more starvation. We will soon have 7 billion people and eventually billions more. It’s already so crowded on this planet there are always many wars and famines going on all the time. If somebody wants to get an abortion, why not let them do it, instead of making the problem of our exploding population even worse?
Boycott qwerty.
Hey Qwerty,
“Do you seriously think 48,589,993 unwanted babies would all grow up to be normal citizens, never committing any crimes, all getting a good education and good jobs despite the fact they had no father and a mother who didn’t want them and had no money?”
No. I think some would grow up to be outstanding citizens. I think some would grow up horrible. And I think most would end up just like you and me.
Think of your ten favorite people. What were the circumstances surrounding their birth? I don’t challenge you to go read ten biographies. Just some general knowledge. Oprah comes to mind right away - the product of a violent rape. Is she a net positive? Beethoven had an incredibly difficult childhood, I have heard. Helen Keller. Please think about your ten people, even if they are people I may not admire. I would love to hear who they are, and what were their general circumstances coming into this world.
The late Qwerty spoke in extreme terms, and I generally agree with Marie in #82 that had aborted babies been born, their outcomes in life would not have had the inevitability Qwerty suggested.
Many of them likely would have been adopted into loving homes, and in other cases the birth mothers would have overcome whatever circumstances led them to consider abortion in the first place and raised them well.
But I do think the notion that women have abortions cavalierly (the anti-abortionists are fond of the phrases “for convenience” or “on demand”) is largely a myth. I know a small number of women who had abortions, and with only one or two exceptions, they were in very dire situations at the time.
This is a very difficult issue and emotions run high on both sides, but if there was ever a time to remember “judge not lest ye be judged,” this is it.
Of the women I know who had abortions, not a single one of them feels good about it or would want to do it again. But most of them do believe it was the best thing they could have done at the time.
Women who kill children and doctors who perform abortions need redemption. No amount of laws will change minds.
#83 is good.
Make it as easy as possible not to have an abortion.
#84 may be compatible with that thought as well.
Do you even understand the context of the biblical instruction to “just not lest you be judged,” SteveG? It’s quite obvious from your post 83 that you do NOT.
God didn’t show much respect for human life in the Old Testament or New. All those first borns slaughtered in Egypt. The floods. Wars. Herod’s slaughter of the innocents. Pretty remarkable carnage, really. Doesn’t really seem like saving babies was every much of a concern to him.
Not that I’m arguing for abortion. I just think the Biblical justification for the vehemence of the right to life position is pretty weak.