When I say that we are generally a Christian nation with a secular government, and you take issue, is it that you disagree that we have a secular government or that we are largely Christian in our heritage and our make-up?

As a Christian myself, I don’t mind haveing a basically secular government as long as it affirms our right to believe and practice our faith freely. And that right goes also to those who don’t believe. The only danger, in my view, is when people want to use government to establish “secularism” into some sort of state religion, as it were. I think we made it some 200 years without establishing any “ism” as a state religion but it takes vigilence to keep the healthy balance.

What matters as founders is their respect for the Christian faith and for the free-expression thereof in this country.

I include as Founders of America, the Puritan Founders as well. They provided much of the groundwork, the culture and values, that made us ripe soil for the political founders of the late 18th century who carried us to the next level.

For me, the founding of America was a fascinating process and is not limited to the 1770 & 80s, because America is not limited to its political structure and documents.

Re 48, points well taken.

It’s a distinction I was making simply for accuracy’s sake which I made clear in my comment. It just seemed to me that you missed it.

When Paul wrote to the Romans, he was not sure he would ever get there personally. It was also befre the Neroian persecutions of Christians got hot. Yet, Years earlier, Claudius had exiled the Christians and Jews from Rome and they had recently returned. So there was a history of tension already. Paul wanted the Christian community in Rome to keep the peace with the powers and authorities and not be seen as a threat for rebellion. Well, they soon got mistreated as perceived threats anyhow.

I don’t think that Paul’s words were meant to imply that governing authorities are beyond accountability either. In general principle, Christians should be good citizens and not be agitators. Paul was speaking to general principle in my view.

If I lived in 1776 and had the Christian convictions that I carry now, I would understand and respect any Christian who chose not to rebel based on Romans 13. History teaches that the vast majority of Revolutions do not culminate with a net benefit, especially for the people. Often one tyrany replaces another.

The American Revolution turnhed out to be rather special in my view. It did result in net gains for the people and the world. But I have the benefit of hindsight and I respect both sides of the debate and difficulty faced by those at the time who faced huge risks either way and had no luxury of hindsight.

I agree with most of what you write except I would note Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen and a few other minor figures were the “Deists” among the Founders. The key Founders including Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Madison and Washington were neither Deists nor Christians, but something in between with rationalism as the trumping element. The term of art that an evangelical scholar coined is “theistic rationalists.”

I thought you meant a denial that Nero was the leader to whom Paul told believers to submit.

I’m amenable to alternate interpretation of that passage — that Romans 13 doesn’t necessarily forbid rebellion in certain circumstances. But it does provide for somewhat of a stumbling block to believers who want to rebel or refuse to submit to government. And nowhere in the Bible is there a “right” to rebel ala America’s Declaration of Independence.

I do see a distinction between “submit” and “obey.” If government commands a believer to sin, or what’s clearly outlined as sin in the Bible, obviously you can refuse to obey. Just be prepared to accept the legal consequences by submitting to the legal authorities.

There’s nothing specifically Christian about the Founders’ idea of God, though. Many were Christian, some were Deists (Paine indisputably, Jefferson and a few others most likely) and all were keenly aware of the danger of mixing God and government.

The Declaration of Independence refers to “their Creator,” and does not specify it as the God of the Bible. It also refers to “nature’s God,” which fully accords with Deist thought. The Constitution is completely devoid of religious language.

There is no strong case that the Founders saw America as a “Christian nation,” just as one where freedom of conscience, including in matters of religion, would be respected and upheld.

Yes, it must be stated that we are making progress (not enough, admittedly) against the abortion industry in that there are several hundred thousand fewer abortions a year now than in the early 90s (according to recent repots).