Religion: Depression and the (Mormon) church
The release of a recent study that found Utah is the most depressed state in the country is leading to controversial questions about whether there is a correlation between depression and the Mormon faith. Ultimately, the reason behind Utah’s mass depression is unknown. However, Dr. Curtis Canning, a psychiatrist and former president of the Utah Psychiatric Association, believes there is a cultural factor involved, especially with Mormon women who may feel that in order to be a good mother and wife, they “have to put on this mask of perfection. They can’t show their tears, depression or agony.”
But Brent Scharman, a psychologist and the assistant commissioner of LDS Family Services, isn’t convinced there’s a crisis in Utah and the Mormon church. Instead he cites the fact that “religion is good support” that ”creates a positive network and helps people get through crises and deal with long-term problems.”
“Are there people who feel ‘I’m not living up to the LDS ideal,’ or ‘I’m not living up to my family’s expectations’? Absolutely, there is no question. But having done counseling outside the LDS community, I saw people there, too, who were depressed because of perfectionism,” he said. “I wouldn’t say it is any worse here than in more diverse communities.”
What do you think about Scharman’s point that the pursuit of perfection in any religious community can be a root of depression? Is this something you have observed in your congregation?














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back to top94 Comments to “Religion: Depression and the (Mormon) church”
If it is genetic, as many deem clinical depression to be, this could easily be explained. Mormon intermarriages with cousins might worsen the trait.
If you’re husband was sleeping with one of your “sister wives” you too might be depressed, no?
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Geez, sawgunner! NOT true.
Clinical depression may very well be wider spread than is being reported. I’d like to see the demographics of how they arrived at this conclusion. It might only be that in a state
where one assumes because of LDS influence there
is a high degree of perfection seeking in people’s lives, that would be the cause. I’d like to see a comparison between Utah and say, Massachusetts. MA has a very diverse population,
and the inherent economic issues that go with that. We see alot of depression here that would go unreported because it’s progressed to drug use, alcoholism or not even reported! Because
segments of the population here don’t know how to
or will not go for help!
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I don’t know that these communities are actually pursuing perfection as in “be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Rather, I think they impose a standard where the only way women can express themselves is through homemaking, baking. etc. and subtlely frown on women who work out of the home, insinuating that the husband isn’t providing sufficiently, etc. I think they misinterpret what “perfection” is. There is this desire to make everyone conform to a standard that has nothing to do with salvation at all. Does God really care who bakes the best pastries for a church birthday party? Does God care if you don’t go to business school and make a lot of money to support your family in the style the church thinks you should? I don’t think so. There is no place for these people, men or women, to be themselves, and if they leave, they may lose their family, they may be shunned. It’s not just the Mormons who do this. There are “cultic” churches all over the place. It’s just that the Mormons for the most part are located en masse in Utah.
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I would think if the ‘pursuit of perfection” was based on one’s own deeds and attitudes and the pursuit was required to be accepted, it could indeed lead to perfection. No, I have not observed it in our congregation though we do have depressed people. Their reasons for depression vary.
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Depression is very high throughout the Rocky Mountain states, including Nevada, Washington, Idaho, Colorado, etc.
There is evidence that the Mormon faith has a protective effect against depression and suicide. Non-mormons in Utah are more depressed and commit suidide much more frequently than mormons. Mormons who don’t attend worship services are also more prone to suicide and depression than mormons who attend church services.
This would weaken the theory that seeking perfection is the cause for depression unless non-mormons in Utah are seeking perfection with greater motivation than mormons.
Researchers need to look at other factors other than religion. Genetics, elevation, atmosphere, chemical exposure, diet, weather, temperature, etc. are more likely causes at this point.
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People often feel good after a nice shower or bath. I’ve heard that Mormons bathe in their secret underwear, thus, not really getting as squeaky clean as they could. That would also depress anyone.
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what is the cause and what is the effect? Depression may lead to extreme religious adherence in order to cope. The secular companion is the numerous 12 step programs available. Or depression and religion may be correlative, feeding off each other in an endless cycle leading to codependency.
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American Journal of Epidemiology 2002;155:413-419. “High Religious Commitment Linked to Less Suicide”
This study would indicate that religious attendance (with mormons in particular) reduces depression and suicide. Mormons attending church are less likely to be depressed than US residents in general and far less likely to be depressed than Utah residents who are either non-mormon or are mormon but do not attend church.
Japan has a very high rate of suicide that has been attributed to very high standards that are set for their teens. I don’t think the solution is to set low standards. I think we need to set achievable standards and provide all the resources that we can for our children to achieve the standards set.
All studies that I am aware of show that successful parenting requires that high standards be set with consistent enforcement of discipline, including enormous amounts of praise and support.
We don’t need to lower standards. We need to help those among us who are struggling to achieve the standards that are set.
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I’ve read that, too, Bianca. I know it would depress me.
Theo writes: “Mormons who don’t attend worship services are also more prone to suicide and depression than mormons who attend church services.”
I have similar questions to HRW’s. People like to feel safe, and in a cultic church, if that’s what you are used to all your life, you won’t question it. Those who do really suffer.
Depression can be genetic, and there are lots of reasons for it, but often times the depressed have to learn that perfection is unrealistic, it’s childish, and they get better when they come to understand that.
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Don’t overlook the Mormon Church ban on coffee. It’s a serious contributor to the lack of a spring in the step of most of Utah and the mountain west residents. I believe the clinical term is “post-Postum depression”.
Take away Starbucks, Seattle’s Best and the coffee culture of the pacific northwest and you’ll have bear-market depression rates from Arcata to Anchorage. Decaf and 30 days of rain is a lethal combo.
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While I don’t know about the Mormon Church specifically, it’s been my personal experience that religion does cause depression. I don’t discount the positive aspects of religion, but for me it was a horrible, depressing experience. Your results may vary.
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Travis, thank you but Folgers already has an ad campaign. You do show promise as a copywriter, however.
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The following is a typical result of the many studies on the relation of religion to depression:
This study used a representative community-based sample of men and women born in the San Francisco Bay Area in the 1920s to investigate the long-term relations between religiousness, spirituality, depression, and physical health. In late adulthood (age late 60s/mid-70s), religiousness buffered against depression associated with poor physical health, with highest levels of depression observed in the low-religiousness-poor-physical-health group. The buffering effect of religiousness was present after controlling for social support and was predicted longitudinally using religiousness scored in middle adulthood (age 40s)—a time interval of approximately 30 years. Spirituality, operationalized in terms of adherence to non institutionalized religious beliefs and practices, did not have the same buffering effect as religiousness. The findings are discussed with regard to the mechanisms underlying the salutary effect of religion on depression resulting from personal adversity.
Britta Larsen
Wellesley College
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#8…i don’t think it’s about lowering standards…it’s about placing high social value on performance. missing the mark introduces shame and guilt when everyone is supposed to be perfect and happy.
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A higher rate of diagnosis does not necessarily indicate a higher instance of the disease. It may just indicate that Mormon communities have tighter support groups that are better at recognizing when there is a problem so that it can be unofficially diagnosed. How many people live alone in other communities with undiagnosed depression? Maybe Mormons go to the doctor and get a prescription to deal with their depression whereas other people are more likely to self-medicate with alcohol or other drugs. Which group is more likely to have a higher rate of diagnosis?
Sawgunner and Bianca, please be civil and stop spreading blatant lies. If you were really interested in the truth, it would take only a minute to disqualify that false hearsay you’re spreading.
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11. I can say the exact opposite. Being out of church was the most depressing time of my life.
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KBells and Anlir — I have had both experiences. It depends on the church.
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Whenever you have to be judged by works and not grace, it will depress you.
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Utah leads the nation in rates of depression
By James Thalman
Deseret Morning News
Nov 29,2007
Utah is the most depressed state in the country, according to a nationwide study released Wednesday.
The first-of-its kind examination of the “level” of depression and actual outcomes for those seeking help to treat it, ranks Utah 51st – last in the nation.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695231614,00.html
_____________
I had posted this information 3 months ago during the debates, when Romney was running for President.
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Bianca – 6
YOU WRITE:…..
“People often feel good after a nice shower or bath. I’ve heard that Mormons bathe in their secret underwear, thus, not really getting as squeaky clean as they could. That would also depress anyone.”
This isn’t true. Mormons take their underwear off to bath, have sex, and take part in sports.
I don’t agree for one moment with the Mormons, however its a good idea to get your ’squeaky facts’ before saying something which is false and unkind. Suicide and depression are terrible, it isn’t a joke, it certainly isn’t caused by lack of bathing.
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#10 – a religion which prohibits caffeine can still attract adherents??? he asks while sipping a large cup of black coffee.
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I’d be depressed too if I had 4 wives!
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I’ve struggled with depression most of my life and I’ve gone to church just about my whole life. No idea if the two are related or not.
My mother was depressed most of the time also (except when she took antidepressants, which she never stayed on very long because of side effects). She was also very religious, though not any traditional religion. She was an adherent of Unity Church, the core beliefs of which Victoria posted recently on another thread, I think the one about complaining. And she picked elements from eastern beliefs (she tried TM and also was a follower of Guru Sri Chimnoy for a while), psychic “research,” the Christian Science of her youth, and anything else that she felt the “Spirit of Truth within” guided her to.
I’ve been in churches that may not have intended to push perfectionism, but it was easily interpreted that way by those of us who tend to be perfectionists to begin with. I don’t know if being a perfectionist is inherited, but it seems to be common in my family (both my husband and I are, and while we have tried to model non-perfectionist behavior to our kids, they both are also).
I certainly find it less depressing when I’m in a church where people feel free to admit doubts and shortcomings instead of trying to always exhibit what they think shows a “good testimony” (which people in some churches seemed to feel ruled out public admission of doubt and shortcomings except to testify how God had freed one from them).
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Yes. Yes.
I think Coyote Blue has the best response of all.
And I also don’t think this a problem only for Mormons.
Back to taxes–something really depressing as we seek every jot and tittle.
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It was the year Elvis died. While traveling through Wyoming I came across two things.
#1 Cody, Wyoming had the highest rate of suicide in the US.
#2 Cody had over 270 days of wind (15 mph or more).
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I’d be depressed too if I lived next to a salt lake that smelled like a thousand dinosaurs had crawled out of it and died on the shore….
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I note a very high rate of depression among secular perfectionists as well – maybe it is the perfectionism rather than the religious orientation?
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KRM
Do you know the pressure which is brought against those who even speak softly to leave the LDS?
Do you know of their isolation from friends and family if they do leave?
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I am sure Victoria is right about feeling isolated in Utah if you leave the mormon church or if you do not belong to it. This probably explains why depression and suicide are much higher among non-mormons in Utah than among mormons and why it is much higher among mormons who do not attend church.
Mormons actually have depression and suicide that are low in comparison to other western states. The community of mormons probably helps to decrease feelings of loneliness just as christian churches help their constituents.
It is incorrect to assume that depression and suicide are caused by mormonism just because Utah has a high rate of depression. Mormons have lower rates of depression and suicide than other religions. There opposition to gambling, alcohol, abortion, drug use, and their low rates of divorce help to decrease their risks for depression and suicide.
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Theo
YOU WRITE:…. :arow: “Mormons actually have depression and suicide that are low in comparison to other western states. The community of mormons probably helps to decrease feelings of loneliness just as christian churches help their constituents.”
Please Theo, before you make these statements check out the facts. Utah has one of the HIGHEST rates of depression in the US, and its suicide rate is high as well.
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Theo
YOU WRITE:……
“It is incorrect to assume that depression and suicide are caused by mormonism just because Utah has a high rate of depression.”
YOU WRITE:……
“Mormons have lower rates of depression and suicide than other religions. There opposition to gambling, alcohol, abortion, drug use, and their low rates of divorce help to decrease their risks for depression and suicide.”
Theo, your statements contradict themselves, can you see this? I have bolded the comments.
I have known Mormons, they aren’t the none drinkers you seem to think they are. Mitt Romney was all for pro-choice abortion until he decided to run for President and then that all changed. Thankfully the guy lost.
Check your facts before you make these sweeping statements Theo, its easier for you and the rest of us.
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Kristin’s interpretation of this ’study’ is a fine example of the ecological fallacy, a nasty little booger that has been understood for decades in epidemiology and centuries in geography but not by world journalists apparently. I am glad to see that Solon and Theo understand this issue.
But hey don’t let that bother you Victoria. If you can’t see the difference between Utah and Mormons, or if you don’t understand the difference between correlation and causation then I would expect you to…. actually scratch that. I suppose that explains a good deal of it.
NJL “People like to feel safe, and in a cultic church, if that’s what you are used to all your life, you won’t question it” How much of this blog is explained by that statement I suspect none of us will ever know.
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bolding is fun. Thanks Victoria. I may never post in regular font again
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Mormons don’t drink beer. End of discussion.
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Xion neither do old regular baptists. ’sup with that? your friend ASaltyDog was making the original baptist argument for his belief to be ‘true christian’ism, yet peppered his arguments with many references to beer. what is the difference between beer and strong drink?
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Mental Health America | formerly known as the National Mental Health Association
Ranking America’s Mental Health: An Analysis of Depression Across the States
Utah was the most depressed state. Among adults in Utah, 10.14 percent experienced a depressive episode in the past year and 14.58 percent experienced serious psychological distress. Among adolescents in Utah, 10.14 experienced a major depressive episode in the past year. Individuals in Utah reported having on average 3.27 poor mental health days in the past 30 days.
NOTE: This site is has much information.
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I have lived in Utah for almost thirty years. For a portion of that time, I lived in Park City which has a much lower concentration of Mormons than the Salt Lake City/Provo/Ogden side of the Wasatch Range of mountains. I am now back to the west side of the mountain range – the side where there the Mormons are highly concentrated. On this side of the mountains, there is a keen competition for the perception of righteousness. Roles in the church organization are filled by appointment by the selection of higher officials in the Church. These leaders “call” other volunteers to fill roles in every position from child nursery leader to apostle. Every individual is measured by the job or “calling” they have in the Mormon Church. Mormons are taught to sustain their leaders, so the member being “called” usually accepts the role that they are called to do. In the “competition” for the more prestigious roles, people’s actions become tempered by the question, “What will so-and-so think of me if I shared how I truly felt about topic xyz?” I believe that this fear of man or fear of the opinion of others is one of the causes of depression because happiness is dependent upon being genuine – with yourself and with others.
It is time, I believe, for Mormons to let go of these fears and concerns. Focus on loving yourselves unconditionally. Focus on the idea that you are acceptable as you are. Feel love for God and feel His love for you. Take life by the horns and live it! Remember, “Man is that he might have joy!”
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Rjbrowneiii – 37
There is ALWAYS a reason when people are depressed, especially when you find the concentration in a particular area.
Did the LORD Jesus say that there were more “prestigious roles” within the church? No Jesus didn’t say that. Jesus said “many that are first shall be last; and the last first”-
I don’t believe that ‘jockeying’ for positions or “competition” within any church would make one ‘depressed’ that would not come from GOD. Those who are leaders in a church aren’t part of a “competition” if they are, there’s a real problem with who they are serving, and there own ’self importance’.
Where do you believe true happiness comes from Rjbrowneiii?
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I say Amen to COYOTEBLUE at #18. Religion without grace fails to give you the hope and expectation of a true belief in the One God.
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Victoria, I think you may be misunderstanding something: Utah does not equal Mormon. Less than half of the population of Salt Lake City is Mormon, and while the state-wide population is about 70 percent Mormon, half of that number (at most) are active (practicing) members. As has been noted by other posts, studies published in professional, peer-reviewed epidemiology and psychology journals show an inverse correlation between religious activity and depression, especially among Mormons. These studies can tell us a lot more of what is going on at the general level than the anecdotal evidence offered in many of the posts. I also don’t think you realize that you and Rjbrowneiii are actually arguing the same point. My experience in the LDS (Mormon) faith is completely different than the one portrayed by Rjbrowneiii – most people do not see service in the church as elitist or as a competition. To those in my congregation who may have feelings of self-aggrandizement inside of them in my congregation, I would echo the same statements that you mention, Victoria. However, I don’t think that this view presented by Rjbrowneiii is the view of the majority of latter-day saints.
NJLawyer and Bianca, I am not sure where you are getting your information concerning latter-day saints (Mormons), but just about everything you have mentioned has been bogus. NJLawyer, assuming you have gone to law school, you should know that information is only as good as its source. Please be a little more prudent next time.
And while I am sure that this was posted in jest, let me clarify just in case that the Mormon church and polygamy parted ways over a 100 years ago. Anyone practicing polygamy today is not associated with the church, despite the occasional journalistic slip here and there of mistakenly associating the practice with the church.
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Jonathan
How long have you been a Mormon, do you live in Utah, and what station do you hold in the LDS today?
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And who’s your tailor, Jonathan?
This will have similar bearing on whether the things you say are true or not {:~)
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Victoria,
These two statements do not contradict themselves.
1. Utah has a higher than normal rate of depression.
2. Church attending mormons have a lower than normal rate of depression.
Both statements are true according to this study.
American Journal of Epidemiology 2002;155:413-419. “High Religious Commitment Linked to Less Suicide”
We had a discussion about this several months ago. You seem to have learned nothing from our discussion and attempt to make the same illogical arguments.
My conclusion is that you will cling to unproven erroneous beliefs no matter what evidence you are given. Trying to communicate facts to you is like banging my head against a brick wall.
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Johnathon,
Just to warn you. Victoria has made it a major portion of her life’s work to attack mormon beliefs. She feels that she is doing the work of God by fighting heresy.
If she had been born in Iraq or Iran she would have already strapped a bomb to her chest and charged into a crowded marketplace to defend Islam from the infidels. Here in America she just fanatically defends Christianity against homosexuality, mormonism, islam, abortionists, and liberal democrats.
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Theo
Theo, this is nothing SHORT of SLANDER you are making a PERSONAL
ATTACK which is unfounded. Who are you to say such horrible things about
me? . . . . . “she would have already strapped a bomb to her chest and
charged into a crowded marketplace to defend Islam from the infidels”
Your comments are outrageous, slanderous and LIES.
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I grew up in Utah as a non-Mormon (Christian). Although I agree that Jonathan and Theo have a right to be offended by some of the snide comments on here about temple garments, etc., I would not be surprised by higher rates of depression among LDS members (Mormons).
LDS women are expected to have at least 8 children, in order to bring as many “spirit children” from heaven into good LDS families. I lived in an area that was heavily LDS and saw the difficulties that brought to women who really didn’t want to have (or didn’t feel equipped to have) children every 18 months. It was very tough financially for families on one moderate income and in small starter homes to have 8 children.
Besides, the LDS women had a very high set of expectations for them and their children, in how they raised their children, how they kept house, etc. According to LDS teaching, their husbands have the right to decide whether to call their wives up to the highest heaven – or not. That’s quite a burden on a woman.
For young men, the responsibility for living up to the high ideals of the LDS church can often be overwhelming. They face the burden of living a good enough life that they can earn their way to the highest heaven and then become gods themselves.
In contrast, the grace offered in the Bible, the free gift of salvation to all who believe, is an amazing gift which we should not take lightly.
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BathD,
I am not offended by comments made towards mormons. Mormons are generally of good character so they deserve some level of respect despite differences in religious beliefs with christians. I do think that dishonesty is a sign of poor character (as is hypocrisy) so I often defend other people whose beliefs are misrepresented by ignorant christians (including Islam, Catholicism, Buddhists, and other religions).
Eight children??? Really?? Are you making this up or do you have some evidence for this strange claim? I have never heard anything like this and don’t know any mormons with more than about 5 children.
Victoria,
Let’s not be so dramatic. Your fanaticism is legendary on this blog. I am simply pointing out that such fanaticism could be used for evil purposes especially if you had been raised in a culture that considered suicide bombing to be an expression of religious fervor.
Since the entire scenario is fictional it is hardly slanderous or a lie.
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I found this website that discusses various religions. Here is the page about mormons (LDS).
The mormon religion seems to be very strong in many areas. They don’t deserve the inaccurate comments that are often made by the ignorant or willfully deceptive.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html
You will notice this statement on the web page.
Active Latter-day Saints Seven Times Less Likely to Commit Suicide.
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Of course anyone can retrieve statistics that say essentially anything that they please. It is important to note that the controls for these types of observational studies are much less rigorous than the controls that we use for other types of studies (direct experimental manipulation) and the statistical power is thus weaker.
This is the same problem that Victoria faces in attempting to deny Theo’s claim: all we have are observational correlation and it would be impossible to have Victoria ‘born in iran or iraq’ etc. But it is worthy to note that labelling some of her behavior (as I am sure you could at some point or in some fashion label us all) anti-human religious fanaticism is not far from the mark.
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Theo:
Please remember that personal attacks are not permitted on this blog. You may criticize ideas, but you may not attack individuals personally.
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If I may, I believe that Theo is saying that Victoria’s views are identical to those who strap bombs to themselves. I don’t see that as a personal attack. It is empirically verifiable.
It is much like pointing out that someone is lying by saying, You are a liar (here is an example: I claim that my wife has been a fan of heavy metal for 41 years). Are you to refrain from pointing out that in this case I am a liar, or must you use the indirect form and say “That is a lie” even though we all know that if it is a lie then that I am a liar? That’s what liars do, they lie, and I don’t understand (unless you are protecting liars) why this is a problem.
I don’t think what Theo said is any different than what is regularly said to newbies about RDean or any of the ‘atheist trolls on this weblog’. Yet they maintain a free pass to disparage those who do not drink the same flavor of kool-aid.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t expect you to be rational, but it seems that it is not too much to ask for you to Be Consistent.
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Re #47
Yes, Theo, it was commonly known (where I grew up in Salt Lake City and Sandy, Utah) that LDS are encouraged to have 8 children.
However, as I now live in the Northwest, I thought that the mores had changed to about 4-5 children (which is what I have observed among LDS living here). When I went back for my 20th high school reunion a few years back, I was surprised at how many of my classmates had 7 or 8 children. One of my classmates has 5 children and in talking to another LDS classmate, she seemed somewhat apologetic that they “only” had 5 children.
These classmates that I knew best and that now have 8 children, were the ones who I took honors and AP classes with and/or who were the student body leaders of our large high school.
So, the expectations might be different for LDS living outside of Utah, but they seem to have stayed remarkably the same in Utah.
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- 48 –
The site mentioned in post 48 is from a Mormon site. Just go down and read the info, you will see that it’s a Mormon site.
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victoria,
Can Mormon websites contain accurate facts? The facts are in question, not their messenger. Otherwise we’re back to the genetic fallacy.
Caute,
SG
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Mental Health America | formerly known as the National Mental Health Association
Ranking America’s Mental Health: An Analysis of Depression Across the States
Utah was the most depressed state. Among adults in Utah, 10.14 percent experienced a depressive episode in the past year and 14.58 percent experienced serious psychological distress. Among adolescents in Utah, 10.14 experienced a major depressive episode in the past year. Individuals in Utah reported having on average 3.27 poor mental health days in the past 30 days.
When you click on the link above you will come to the statistics of both depression and suicide. You will see a list of the states, and their populations.
State Ranking on Depression Status – Utah, 51
State Ranking on Suicide Rates – Utah, 45
When you click on the link above you will come to the statistics of both depression and suicide. You will see a list of the states, and their populations. There are maps which give information regarding mental health.
Depression
42 Wyoming
43 Ohio
44 Missouri
45 Idaho
46 Oklahoma
46 Nevada
48 Rhode Island
49 Kentucky
50 West Virginia
52 Utah
State Ranking on Suicide Rates
42 West Virginia
43 Arizona
44 Colorado
45 Utah
46 Idaho
47 Wyoming
48 Montana
49 New Mexico
50 Nevada
51 Alaska
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SR – 54
The “Mental Health America | formerly known as the National Mental Health Association” would certainly be more accurate.
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Do you really not understand that Utah is not synonymous with Mormon? The accuracy of the figures you’re pointing to, while relevant for Utah, do not reliably tell us much about the mental health of practicing Mormons.
Please carefully reread post #43.
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SR
I also have studied the cult of Mormon for many years.
We won’t agree on this subject so it’d best agree to disagree.
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OK.
Just for the record, here’s a synopsis of the disagreement we’re agreeing to on this subject:
–I can read epidemiologic data for what it says and can recognize what it doesn’t say.
–You can know stuff on personal authority for which you don’t provide evidence anyone else but you should believe.
Personally, I’d rather be credible than not, so this works out to be a pretty good deal for me as far as agreements to disagree go {:~)
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hey victoria i have also studied the cult of baptists for many years. i’m sure we’d agree on lots of things.
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You are a hoot SR, the façade you put forth has no merit.
I provided evidence from the Mental Health America | formerly known as the National Mental Health Association and you come up with a Mormon site. LOL
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- 60 –
Were you taught in grade school to use upper and lower case when writing, its never to late to learn?
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Victoria.
–I didn’t “come up with a Mormon site” Someone else did. Do you have facts that refute what was contended on that site, that practicing Mormons (not simply people in Utah) have a lower rate of suicide. Because saying “Well, that’s a Mormon site” aint proof. It’s innuendo and a sloppy version of the genetic fallacy.
Try this again in simple form:
A) The MHA site says depression and suicide are very high in Utah
B) Another source (a independent epidemiology journal, by the way, and not “just a Mormon site”) says depression and suicide are low among practicing Mormons.
Now what is the most obvious difference between statement A and B? (Hint: it’s not the presumed reliability of the informmants.) Right. It’s the fact that they are referring to different populations.
What is it you don’t get about the idea that a study of folks in Utah doesn’t necessarily translate into conclusions about Mormons?
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#55 – Wow, it looks like there are high suicide and depression rates in non-Mormon states too. In fact, it looks like it’s mostly the poor people in the red states that seem to be suffering most. Damn the GOP perfectionistas!
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Are you a Mormon SG?
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You’re joking right, Victoria?
Please tell us you’re making a funny.
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Victoria,
Adherents.com is an Internet initiative and is not affiliated with any religious, political, or educational organization. Adherents.com is the 2nd most frequently visited general religion site on the Internet, with an average of 13,500 unique visitors per day.
Again, you assume that Utah represents the Mormon religion. According to the latest statistics Utah is only 60% Mormon.
Does Mississippi represent the Baptist denomination (afterall 60% of Mississippi is Baptist)?
Mississippi is as much Baptist as Utah is Mormon.
Mississippi is the most obese state. Mississippi scored the lowest of any state in math and science. Mississippi has the lowest per capita income.
By your logic, the Baptist denomination is the cause of obesity, low incomes, and poor math and science scores.
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Victoria wrote: “How long have you been a Mormon, do you live in Utah, and what station do you hold in the LDS today?”
I have been a Mormon my whole life; I am now 28 years old. I do not live in Utah, and did not grow up there. Rather, I live in Minnesota (Mpls-St. Paul area). However, my parents both grew up in Utah, I went to Brigham Young University for undergraduate studies (University of Minnesota for graduate school), and four of my five (not seven, BETHD) siblings along with most of my extended family live in Utah, and I visit often. As for my station in the church, I recently served in the bishopric of my ward (congregation) prior to our recent move to a new home in a differnt part of the metro area (in the LDS church, the congregation you worship with is determined geographically). By way of explanation, a bishopric in the LDS church is the 3-person governing body of a congregation, made up of the bishop (the pastor/priest/overseer of the congregation) and his two counselors. Since our recent move, I have been called to serve as a leader of the youth in our current ward.
Serious George wrote: “And who’s your tailor, Jonathan?” I think the last one I used was Tony’s Tailors in Maplewood, MN. I assume you are referring to something else, but I am not quite sure I follow. If you mean what I use as my sources, I usually try to think what the most reliable source would be. For things like information on psychology, I would go to professional peer-reviewed journals to find what the best research has shown from those who know the most about it. Peer-reviewed means that the articles are reviewed by other academics and professionals to ensure that the methodology of the study has met the rigorous standards of scientific approach. Databases like PsycInfo are very useful for researching these articles, but are not available to the general public without a fee (but is available to you if you are student or professor at any major university). For a general summary of some research on the issue of depression and religion carried out a few years ago, here is a USA Today article that does a decent job: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm.
For the best sources on someone else’s beliefs, I like what Krister Stendahl, former dean of Harvard Divinity School and current Lutheran Bishop of Stockholm, had to say: when trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion, and not their enemies. It’s kind of a no-brainer when you think about it, but the naive, simplistic alternative of assuming the other side isn’t telling the truth occurs too often. For Mormons, Sunday services are open to all, whether you are a member of the church or not, and there is a vast array of information on LDS beliefs and practices at http://www.mormon.org and http://www.lds.org. Your local practicing member of the church will most likely be delighted to answer any questions you have.
As has been noted from recent news articles (see, e.g., “Colleges scramble to offer curriculum on Mormon religion,” Boston Globe, at http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/02/19/colleges_scramble_to_offer_curriculum_on_mormon_religion/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4), there has been an increased academic interest in Mormon studies as well, including several books published by prestigious academic presses on Mormonism, dealing mostly with history and culture. A brief sampling of recent books include:
-Bushman, Richard Lyman, “Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling” (Knopf, 2005) (biography of Mormonism’s founder)
-Givens, Teryl, “By the Hand of Mormon” (Oxford University Press, 2003) (treatment of the Book of Mormon, including its cultural influence, its criticism by skeptics, and Mormon response to critics)
-Shipps, Jan, “Sojourner in the Promised Land: Forty Years Among the Mormons” (University of Illinois Press, 2006) (cultural study by a non-Mormon)
In short, there are many ways to get information on academic subjects and religious subjects; but the quality and reliability of the source is vital, especially in such polarizing topics such as religion, politics, and health where there is so much misinformation.
Finally, BethD, I have two older sisters and an older brother that live in the Sandy-Draper area of Utah. Two of them are done having kids (one has three, on has two). The other is trying to have kids, as she just got married at age 37. I doubt she will have 8 kids either. They are quite active in church and in their community. To my knowledge, none of their friends (and they are very social – ie, they have A LOT of friends in the area) has anywhere near 8 children. I have asked them if they have ever heard of any such thing as a common understanding to have 8 kids, and they had no clue what I was talking about. While Mormon families generally have more kids, it is NOT “commonly known that LDS are encouraged to have 8 children.” I am thoroughly familiar with the church’s handbook of instructions, and there is no such statement therein either. Rather, church leaders teach that such a decision should be made prayerfully between husband and wife. While I in no way doubt that you know of individuals who have that many children, I would not take that and call it the standard.
If anyone has read this far, you deserve a medal
(sorry for the length).
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Jonathon,
Are you depressed? Have you committed suicide?
Victoria likes to base her facts on small samples in her own life. Your answer to this question could help her conclude if all Mormons are depressed and commit suicide.
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Thanks, Theo. I’m not depressed, and not planning to commit suicide. Hopefully this clears things up for everyone
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Actually, once Victoria makes up her mind, it can’t be changed. Sorry about wasting your time.
Glad to hear you’re not depressed though.
Or perhaps you are repressing a hidden depression. Probably just as deadly. Since you are an admitted Mormon, you should probably start taking anti-depressants as a preventative precaution. Better to be safe than sorry.
Wouldn’t be a bad idea to take your whole family to a psychiatrists for counseling and begin medication as well. It could save their lives.
You’ll thank me later for this advice.
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Interestingly, I asked my sister, who is a psychology professor, about what her and her colleagues in her department think about the ABC News story. Knowing that previous research has shown an inverse relationship between religious and activity and depression (including among Mormons), their initial thoughts were (as mentioned above in another post) that there may be a higher rate of treatment of depression in Utah, due to better access to mental health care and perhaps a cultural notion to seek help rather than self-medicate with alcohol or illegal drugs, which practicing Mormons abstain from.
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Jonathan
YOU WRITE:……
“when trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion, and not their enemies. It’s kind of a no-brainer when you think about it, but the naive, simplistic alternative of assuming the other side isn’t telling the truth occurs too often.”
After studying the cults and interviewing many, many people within those cults it is obvious that one does not receive pertinent information by going to their churches or Kingdom Halls. You will hear ONLY what they want you to know, much is LEFT OUT. It is for this reason that those of us who study and write about the cults do intensive research to extract those things which are not made public. An example of the Mormon (LDS) Church is:
This is the ‘doctrine which the LDS Church shares with anyone who will listen, as they say, it’s their “Official Doctrine” but its not ALL the doctrine.
The Book of Mormon would be given to anyone who would care to read it.
These are the books which contain ‘doctrine’ which is not given out, this is the KEY to those things which aren’t revealed to everyone, except members, and even members aren’t versed in all the doctrine. Unless one is a member of the Mormon Church they would not know about the doctrine in the ‘other books’ unless they had access to them OR someone told them.
YOU WRITE: ……
“It’s kind of a no-brainer when you think about it, but the naive, simplistic alternative of assuming the other side isn’t telling the truth occurs too often.”
Jonathan, it’s a no-brainer to take the word of a cult or anyone who supports them without doing INDEPENDENT RESEARCH. It takes NO BRAINS to take the words of those who are trying to deceive you at face value. When it comes to the cults, they don’t tell the truth, they have another book, in your case The Book of Mormon. I believe Mitt Romney didn’t win the Presidential primary because even those who are not learned in the Word of God know that Mormonism is a cult. Romney also flip-flopped on the abortion issue to name just one, that and his LDS Church affiliation settled the matter for those in the Republican party.
Jonathan its an old trick when those in cults say, or their ‘SUPPORTERS’ “when trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion” and then send people to ‘their sites’ for information, OR sites that substantiate what they preach. Those sites aren’t going to educate anyone about the REAL doctrine or the background of their particular cult. However those ’skilled’ in research understand how its done and why, and the tired phrase which I quoted you in your post is memorized by each cult member to say on ‘cue’, if not by them, they cite another person just as you did when mentioning Krister Stendahl.
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Victoria,
I am amazed when I hear you use the word “research”.
Tell me how you researched your own beliefs. Tell me how you researched your beliefs about the Great Flood, the Tower of Babel, The Exodus, the Garden of Eden, and the Creation.
2000 years ago, the Jews considered Christians to be cultists. 500 years ago Catholics considered Protestants to be cultists (some still do, including the Pope). 100 years ago Protestants considered Seventh Day Adventists to be cultists.
If you don’t believe in Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness, Hinduism, etc. then that is your business. But I find it tacky to try to redefine their beliefs in terms of some obscure references that you uncover in your “research”. Allow them to define their own beliefs. They allow you that luxury.
If Mormonism is some vast conspiracy by Satan to attack Christ, he is certainly presenting a very appealing front. Lower divorce rates, high graduation rates, longer lives, less drug and alcohol dependency, lower abortion rates, fewer unwed mothers, less disease, etc.
If Mormons were more depressed, I might blame it on the persecution by Protestants and evangelicals. Despite their healthy lifestyles, Mormons can’t seem to avoid the constant attacks by people of other faiths. They fled to Utah to avoid religious persecution but it seems to have followed them. Congratulations Victoria.
Gays, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses will eventually have to convert to Evangelicism or they will be persecuted and harassed forever. Luckily, Protestantism will become a minority within the next decade. Perhaps they will have peace and freedom to practice their own beliefs without condemnation.
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God I love this thread.
Victoria honey don’t ever change. I will never forget that Baptistry causes obesity and wife beating. But you have proved it!
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How does one come up with obesity and wife beating within the Baptist denomination, and to think it all came about in the Baptistery? Was that under water or above? Or was it even in a Baptist Church? It’s those spelling errors which get in the way.
Baptistery
Definition:
1. part of Christian church: a part of a Christian church used for baptisms
2. pool in church for baptisms: a tank or pool in a Baptist church used for baptisms by total immersion
Someone has a problem, is there a DOCTOR IN THE HOUSE?
NOTE: Baptistry is spelled Baptistery. Hope this helps those who are having problems with spelling.
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Victoria honey don’t ever change. You are fantastic.
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I know, isn’t it GREAT!
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I was going to apologize about leading the thread off topic, but I think someone out-did me. Since it seems to be amusing to at least two of you (thanks, Theo and Erasmus), why not keep going. After all, I have to admit that this is starting to get amusing for me as well.
Victoria, how can I learn more about the beliefs and intentions of the countercult industry? Following your logic, would I need to go to http://www.mormon.org for that?
Honestly, though, I find the countercult industry very intriguing. A sociology professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City, Douglas Cowan, published an academic study of the culture of the countercult industry a few years ago entitled “Bearing False Witness? An Introduction to the Christian Countercult” (a good read for anyone here). Similar to his findings, my experience has been that while there have been a few respectable individuals in the countercult (such as Craig Blomgerg, Carl Mosser, and Paul Owen, who, while criticizing my faith, at least do so in an honest and generally scholarly manner – though I hear they have taken heat from the rest of the countercult for calling them out on academic laziness and dishonesty), I have been amazed by either the blind use of sources or flat-out dishonesty of many in the group (I tend to think its the former, but it is still bad research). Rarely does anyone actually use original sources. Instead, they are usually just quoting other countercultists or the citation of original sources from other countercultists, thus increasingly diluting the information from the original source. This is bad research no matter what the field of research you are engaging in. And why on earth so many Christian bookstores carry these books is beyond me. Does the end justify the means?
By the way, Victoria, what are these other LDS books you mention that aren’t available to the public and have secret doctrines? I would like to get my hands on those.
You also wrote: “Jonathan, it’s a no-brainer to take the word of a cult or anyone who supports them without doing INDEPENDENT RESEARCH. It takes NO BRAINS to take the words of those who are trying to deceive you at face value.” I agree.
Speaking of cults, can we get over the name calling? We all know the dictionary definition of “cult” (it can apply to all religions), and we also all know the negative connotation that it carries with it today. Its a word that is only used to discredit and denigrate, and is clearly used only for rhetorical purposes. Please drop it.
What I am about to say is in no way to boast, but to give you the background of my experience with leaders of the LDS church. Having a father who has served in the Seventy (one of the top governing bodies of the church) and having served as a local leader myself, your complex conspiracy theory baffles me. I have personally met many of the LDS apostles, including meeting several times with Thomas S. Monson, the current president of the church. He, along with Bruce R. McConkie, was a good friend of my grandparents and has worked with my father on ecclesiastical matters. My grandmother was in the general young women presidency in the 60s and 70s, and worked closely with many of the other top church leaders. I have never a met a group of more honest people in my life. You can make arguments that these people may be honestly mistaken in their beliefs, but I think you and many others in the countercult industry need to look in the mirror when you accuse them of deception.
In addition, I have served in the local governing councils for a sufficient period to get a pretty good feel for the inner-workings of the church (ie, what goes on behind the scenes, what the policies are, etc.). I wish I could take you there with me so you could see all of the “conspiracies” and “deception” first-hand (”how can we help Sister So-and-So get out of her driveway when it snows?” “what can we do to create a greater feeling of reverence toward God during our services?” or “what can we do to ensure that the teaching in church classes is based firmly in the scriptures?”). And if there are all of these secret teachings that you talk about, who is doing the teaching? And who are the ones being taught? It obviously isn’t being taught by or to leaders or members at the local level, and it was never taught by or to my dad in the upper leadership levels.
Victoria wrote: “Jonathan its an old trick when those in cults say, or their ‘SUPPORTERS’ “when trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion” and then send people to ‘their sites’ for information, OR sites that substantiate what they preach. Those sites aren’t going to educate anyone about the REAL doctrine or the background of their particular cult. However those ’skilled’ in research understand how its done and why, and the tired phrase which I quoted you in your post is memorized by each cult member to say on ‘cue’, if not by them, they cite another person just as you did when mentioning Krister Stendahl.”
So you shouldn’t use original sources to understand another’s beliefs? And “cult” members are memorizing these things to say on cue? Are you kidding me? Where are you coming up with this? I hope my endless rambling has shown that I have been doing anything but reciting memorized cues, as I would be embarrassed to show the poor writing style and structure of this post to my colleagues. And, by the way, I just came across the quote by Stendahl a few days ago – it wasn’t memorized, but it is an excellent guide to understanding the beliefs of others (and yes, I have read some of the works from the countercult industry).
I’ll end with a quote from a professor of political science who I respect, Robert Wood. He noted: “I recall that as a graduate student I wrote a critique of an important political philosopher. It was clear that I disagreed with him. My professor told me that my paper was good, but not good enough. Before you launch into your criticism, she said, you must first present the strongest case for the position you are opposing, one that the philosopher himself could accept. I redid the paper. I still had important differences with the philosopher, but I understood him better, and I saw the strengths and virtues, as well as limitations, of his belief. I learned a lesson that I’ve applied across the spectrum of my life.”
It is so easy to caricature others, creating the proverbial straw man, knocking it down, and feeling proud of the accomplishment. This accomplishes, little, however, because we can’t really criticize what we can’t correctly describe.
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Jonathan:
Welcome to WMB! It’s great to have the LDS church represented here. It’s funny, I defended Mormonism, too, on an older thread, and Victoria wanted to know right away whether I was one. (My cousin is LDS and I’m a member of a conservative protestant denomination. We actually have a lot in common and a great friendship.)
My cousin, BTW, has only four children. Two of them are no longer LDS, and she and her husband have not rejected or shunned them in any way and include them in all family get-togethers, contrary to what Victoria says happens. Of her two children who are still LDS (and temple-married), one has four children and the other has six. All are well, happy, not depressed. Of the two non-LDS children, One has four children, the other one, so far–she’s just getting started. They are also happy and well.
Thanks for your contributions here, and blessings on you and yours!
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Jonathan, you have to laugh because you cannot take her seriously.
maybe pray: Lord help me to suffer this fool gladly.
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Jonathan,
I am glad to have an LDS member here posting. I find myself defending the mormon church against hostile christians despite the fact that I am not a member.
I believe in the teachings of Jesus. I also believe the teachings of Buddha and find many of his lessons to be equally powerful. My muslim friends are also very good examples to their community. I find goodness in all religions and laugh at the close-minded attitude of many people here.
Victoria,
Let me help you with the connection.
Your logic:
Utah = Mormon (60% of state population)
Utah is depressed therefore Mormonism causes depression.
By same logic:
Mississippi = Baptist (60% of state population)
Mississippi is the most obese state. It ranks lowest in science and math. It has the lowest household income.
Therefore, the baptist denomination causes obesity, low science and math I.Q., and low household income.
Erasmus added the wife-beating to be humorous.
He is right though. Mississippi ranks #2 in domestic violence. I guess all Baptists are wife-beaters.
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Janie, thanks for the welcome. Erasmus, Theo – you’re right – I probably took all of this too seriously. I think I was using Victoria as a sounding board for my frustration with the countercult (sorry, Victoria), which I should probably be careful doing lest I become anti-anti-Mormon
. In any case, I hope it has been enjoyable for all, and sorry about getting off topic.
So what was the original question, again? Can the pursuit of perfectionism in any religious community be a root of depression? Is this something you have observed in your congregation?
I think it’s hard to say, because depression can be such a private issue. Some people may appear perfectly happy on the outside and be struggling on the inside, and others who may be more quiet and less bubbly may appear to some to be depression candidates, but are really at peace within themselves. Perhaps ecclesiastical leaders such as priests, pastors, or bishops who counsel more in private with individuals about very personal issues may have a better feel (I was a counselor to a bishop, so I didn’t meet as much with individuals on private personal matters). However, from the experience that I have had (anecdotal as it is), it has seemed to me that those who had high aspirations of self-improvement (for example, in trying to follow the example and teachings of Jesus) and serving others actually were the happiest.
For me personally, I feel down/depressed more when I am not being active or when I am not stretching myself with a goal. Obviously, there can be such a thing as burnout when we try to fill our lives so full of good things that we start to neglect the most important.
At the same time, I understand that clinical depression does not stem only from circumstance, but can have hereditary and neurological bases as well. This is where help from competent professionals will be especially important. However, as mentioned above in another post, many individuals may sadly self-medicate with alcohol or illegal drugs, and may affect the statistics where certain populations are more likely to self-medicate than others.
In short, I think that what happens when/if people become depressed through the “pursuit of perfectionism” is when they are pursuing it in the wrong way. For example, when perfection becomes trying to look perfect or have the most well kept home or largest paycheck – and thus neglecting the “pursuit of perfection” in more important areas, like loving and being kind to spouse and children, or loving God and seeking his will in their lives – things can start to fall apart. This is just a thought – what do others here think?
Victoria, in a spirit of kindness, I would like to hear your experience with this issue in the countercult ministry. What effect has the “pursuit of perfection” had on some of those you may have worked with from the ministry? (and I am referring to those in the ministry you work with, not to Mormons who you are trying to help leave the fold).
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I do think it would be a good idea to stop calling the LDS church a “cult”. It is being done on this site in an insulting way, to imply that the group referred to are wackos of some kind. According to the dictionary, one could actually call any religion or denomination a “cult”.
Cult: “A system or community of religious worship and ritual.” (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)
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And, some people think all Christians are wackos anyway.
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My opinion is that we live in a wacky universe. I am keeping my mind open because there is so much that defies explanation.
I lived in a Buddhist country for many years. Buddhists see the same miracles, healings, supernatural interventions, spiritual events, etc. as Christians do. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons also have these occurrences. I would guess that Muslims and Hindus do as well.
If you claim that your religion is the only religion, I think you have alot of explaining to do. My advice is to keep an open mind to everything. Scientists are certainly discovering many things but some they may never discover.
I recently met some Hmong people who believe that the Sasquatch is the Spirit of the Forest. They said they have the same creature in their forests in Asia. They said it will never be caught and never be proven. Because it is a spirit. Makes me wonder if there is any truth to that belief.
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#73 Victoria, how do you make those arrow thingies?
Seriously …
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84 – “According to the dictionary, one could actually call any religion or denomination a “cult”.”
I know I always do!
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Cause of Depression?
“But life has a funny way of not being perfect,” she said. “Three years into my marriage my husband was drinking, using drugs and stepping out on me. … “I knew I was depressed and needed help, but there is a stigma about depression in this area,” said Wendy.
Sheeeesh – I’d guess the problem is simply unwillingness to get divorced!
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POLITICO
Romney says he’d take Veep, calls McCain “Big Dog”
March 11, 2008
“According to two separate reports, Romney is being talked up as a running mate by members of the Bush inner circle. But McCain and his closest advisers have little regard for their former rival thanks to the bitter, year-long race waged between the two Republicans.”
YES I BET HE WOULD! But will McCain ask him? I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.
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I have to agree, I think the Mormon Chrurch is Very Depressing.
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AT least the LDS has come clean with respect to the failure of archaeological research to provide any confirmation of the history given in their texts. If only the rest of christianism would follow suit.
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Earlier in post 41, Victoria asked: “How long have you been a Mormon, do you live in Utah, and what station do you hold in the LDS today?”
Being the curious fellow that I am, and being new to the site and wanting to get to know people better, I thought I would return the question:
Victoria, how long have you been involved in the countercult ministry? What state do you live in? What station do you hold in the countercult ministry? Additionally, which countercult ministry are you involved with?
To Serious George, NJLawyer, and perhaps a few others, I think I misjudged where you are coming from in some of your comments. Thank you for respecting my beliefs in other posts, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.
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I don’t see anything you’ve got to apologize for here, Jonathan.
By the way, I keep missing the pitch with that “who’s you’re tailor” line; I keep thinking it’s going to connect, but I’m 0-and-2 at this point. The point was (supposed to be) that your choice of tailor is as relevant to whether the things you say are true as your background, denomination and origins are. Some folks have a bad habit of trying to discredit what someone says or reports by impugning the source. Victoria’s malignment of the data on suicide among Mormons because that data was posted on what she estimated to be a Mormon site is an example of this.
Regards,
SG
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