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No prom with Marine
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An Illinois high school senior only got to spend 10 minutes at her prom due to a school policy that barred her from attending with a 21-year-old Marine. Jessica Pope’s boyfriend Francisco Velasco, who is stationed at Fort Lee, Va., received special permission from his superiors to fly in for the dance. But since school policy prohibits anyone of drinking age from attending proms, the couple had to sit most of the event out.
Pope said that after dropping off friends at the Signature Room in Woodridge on Saturday and stopping briefly inside to say hello, school officials backed off and allowed the couple inside–if only for a few minutes.
School Principal Robert McBride shook Velasco’s hand “and went out of his way to say he wasn’t getting let in not because of any disrespect for the military,” Pope said. “It was just policy. Then another dean told us we could come inside for a bit and have some fun. I figured we would get a half-hour.”
But Pope said that within 10 or 15 minutes, McBride and several other school officials were at her table urging the couple to leave the banquet hall immediately while they were in the middle of dinner.
The couple was only able to take one photo in the banquet hall with Pope in her dress and Velasco in full Marine attire.
Should the school have made an exception in this case?
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Soul searching
When I was in high school, and when I taught high school, prom policies were made pretty clear several times–a flyer that went home, verbal reminders in homeroom/assemblies, posters on the wall, etc.
I think she should have asked ahead of time. He had the sense to know he needed to make special arrangements to attend, and she should have done the same.
Had that happened, I would have made an exception.
Yes. Unless it was made very clear up front.
I don’t understand the rule. “Drinking age”? This is the same kind of reasoning that removes a child from his family because the father bought “hard lemonade” at a ball game.
Should the school have made an exception in this case?
If you are asking if an exception should be made because he is a Marine, then no. I am assuming that this policy is clearly stated and known by the students. And if that’s the case, is shouldn’t matter what kind of 21-year-old the girl brings to prom, be it Marine, sailor, plumber, fratboy, or cousin.
And of course, the principal is under 21.
Give me a break.
This kind of thinking is fast contributing to the downfall of our society, in which “rules” have become the substitute for good judgment.
When a Marine shows up in “full Marine attire” he represents not himself, but the Marine Core, and the United States. If this Marine were to do anything illegal, i.e. contribute to the delinquency of a minor, he would suffer greater and more significant punishment from the military than he would get from the school.
Luckily this Marine, even though armed, was more sane and stable than these idiot PC whack job teachers. He should have had his saber on for full dress uniform
The Marines had have by far the best dress uniforms.
Roger: Of course now that this idiotic war has forced our armed services to accept an assortment of previously unfit felons and petty criminals, who knows what type of soldier might show up…
Don’t you think it likely that “contributing to the delinquency of a minor” might have entered this young man’s mind?
And, more generally, you are not in favor of rules governing kids’ behavior?
This is another case of “zero tolerance” stupidity.
You know, the kind of policy that kicks kids out of school for squirt guns and aspirin or calls the police because a kindergartener slaps a playmate on the behind.
A better policy than “no one of drinking age” would be a process where a student could apply for a waiver and each such case would be evaluated separately based on student records etc.
Yep, what Kathy said.
My 18 year old daughter took her 21 year old boyfriend to the prom, but he had to meet with the VP first. If one can’t think through these things one ought not to be in education.
Oh, and said boyfriend ended up abandoning our daughter to her limo group while he was DD for a bunch of high school seniors who found alchohol without him.
Why should the school make an exception at all?
However, like most drive-by articles, there might be more to this story than what we’re reading. Did the girl bother to get permission ahead of time? If not, then why the outrage against the school?
And I doubt this Marine was an officer, Llama, so he doesn’t have a sabre to rattle. From the picture and article, this kid is enlisted and still thinks he’s gangster.
Yep, he’s wearing his hat tilted to the right, a signal that he’s part of a Chicago Latin gang affiliated with Folk Nation.
Classy guy.
I personally don’t think a high school activity with romantic tones should be attended by anyone over 21 unless they are a chaperon. I don’t care if he was a marine. While some seniors are 18, the majority of high school kids are minors.
Kristin: Should the school have made an exception in this case?
Frank: I’m no fan of the gummint school system, for a variety of reasons — their slavish adherence to “Zero Tolerance” policies that punish kids who bring nail files (”weapons”!) or aspirin (the “drug war”!) to school not least among them.
But if the schools have an (also nonsensical, IMO) ZT policy for prom attendees of legal drinking age, that is (unfortunately) their policy. It is arguably much more straightforward and clear than imagining a nail file to be a weapon.
I see no inherent problem with a student dating someone of legal drinking age, and think they should be allowed to bring their date to the prom. This policy really speaks of the American prohibitionist uptightness re. drinking: “The mere presence of a person of legal drinking age could unduly influence non-drinking minors! Gasp!” (Demon rum … BOO.)
But your question has a certain whiff of “shouldn’t they have made an exception because he’s a Marine?” to it. They should either change the policy to “No Alcohol Permitted” (as opposed to prohibiting dates of legal drinking age); or they should apply their stupid policy across the board. (Although I suppose I would entertain the possibility of exceptions that had been applied for in advance.)
Lester - What about the picture makes you think this kid “still thinks he’s a gangster.” Is it because he looks Latino? Doesn’t that make you a bigot, or at least judgmental? He doesn’t look all that different than my grandson or any of the 3 young men with whom I work, all basically nice guys living ordinary lives.
My guess is that, if he hadn’t worn his uniform [and I’m proud he did], no one would have questioned his participation in the prom at all. He would have looked like every other guy there.
I have no idea what policy our high school has on young people past high school age attending, but we were surprised to find out they prohibit anyone younger than junior from attending. My 16-year-old son has a girlfriend for the first time, who happens to be a junior. She invited him to the prom - then found out sophomores were not allowed. (So neither of them went.) I wasn’t bothered - it seems to me that the money spent on proms is mostly a waste. But I was surprised, as I’ve known students in other schools who were able to attend even if they weren’t juniors or seniors themselves, if they were brought by a junior or senior.
Given Arcadia’s line of reasoning (which is a great example of guilt by association) they ought to have banned teachers as well since we read almost everyday of a teacher having a sexual affair with a student.
What a world!
Lester (11): From the picture and article, this kid is enlisted and still thinks he’s gangster.
Yep, he’s wearing his hat tilted to the right, a signal that he’s part of a Chicago Latin gang affiliated with Folk Nation.
Frank: Dang, Les. You can tell all that just by looking at the closely-cropped photo included with the story?
You should change your screen name to Columbo.
Or maybe you have a relative on the area PD who can, you know, pay Fransisco a visit …
(And here, when I saw the same photo, I just thought he was a member of a Scottish heritage softball team …)
Should they have made an exception? No, unless the girl made arrangements ahead of time. They should probably change the rule to reflect a pre-arranged exception. Another thing to do is just make sure no alcohol is available at the prom site, but that is too obvious.
But he can always take her to the Marine Corps Birthday Ball and that is way cooler than any prom! Besides, there the rules aren’t as stupid.
For the record, even though I loved seeing my husband in his Dress Blues, even an SF guy in blues can’t compare for spiffiness to a Marine in Dress Blues. I agree with the Llama. Marines have the best uniforms ever.
**sigh** Gotta love a man in uniform.
ivan The Terrible,
I never thought about the teachers who are pedophiles. Why doesn’t the zero policy ban them too - just in case. Nothing like letting sure foxes in the chicken coop. The poor chickens can never come home to roost that way
As poor as these whack jobs teach, the teachers should probably ben banned from the classroom too - just on general principle. Not because they are possibly pedophiles but because their teaching should be considered endangering children at the very least
Pauline - our school had the same rule. It think if you went to our school, you could go if you were younger. But a student from our school couldn’t invite a student from another school unless he/she was a junior or senior. My husband, however, went to his prom as a sophomore. It seems that these rules are a function of how much space they have available for prom. I had a bigger school, and there was less space for underclassmen and kids from other schools. My husband attended a small school, and they had room for anyone wanting to attend.
Kayvee - if you read my post, you’d realize I didn’t think he was a gangster because he was Latino. I think he’s a gangster because of how he wears his hat.
And yes, Frank, I am in law enforcement. I run across gangster (or more likely gangster wannabees) all the time. Tilting the hat to one side or the other is a signal affiliating the wearer with a gang. This originated in the Chicago gang scene and is still prevalent there.
If this kid were from Oklahoma or New Mexico, I might not give it a second thought. Chicago? That’s a different story.
Now tell me why the school should bend the rules for this guy? Because he was a Marine? What if he were Army? Or Navy?
What about the girl? Did she ask the school for a waiver? Why not?
Why is it always the school’s fault? Or the adults who run the school?
Sure. It’s NEVER the kids fault. Or the parents. Has to be the commie whack jobs who run the schools.
I just a call from my wife. The kid that invited her to Prom was a baseball player. He had to play in the playoffs on Saturday with the game starting in the late afternoon so he couldn’t take her out to eat so I said I would cook for the girls who were going with baseball players instead a do it up big time. My daughter was back to her old self.
This nitwit kid, 3 days before prom, just text messaged my daughter that he is not taking he to the Prom but has decided to take his old girlfriend instead. He couldn’t even tell her to her face. My daughter and i never liked this guy and we knew he was a loser so I am glad he did this so I can use it as an eventually required teaching lesson when I get home tonight.
It is too bad my daughter is so upset about this great thing happening to her but, she is young, and will learn how totally awful some boys and men are, learn to be more careful, perceptive, have higher standards and listen to her parents more closely going forward.
It is going to be hard not to smile when I talk to her about this.
I haven’t decided if I am going to barge in, get my pistols out, act insane telling her I will straighten this out with this boy and when she tries to stop me, point out how insane and crazy my reaction was but how it pales in comparison to her stupid reaction. Or, be more creative and do something really nuts. My wife wants me to tell her what I am going to do on the way home from the airport, since she knows me too well and has fallen for my fakery before many times before since she is a naive liberal whack job and easily fooled, but she will be last to know.
Finally a reason to go on living:-)
Pity the schools. The public jumps up and down and screams for the schools to do something about violence, alcohol, drugs, and gangs, and impose discipline. Some of the trouble comes from outsiders who are battling over turf, etc.. So the schools put in some common sense rules such as limiting school functions to students.
Then you have parents screaming “My kid should be granted an exception”. And that’s the problem: everyone thinks their kid should be granted an exception from having to follow the rules. If they grant one exception how do they turn down the next exception?
Next thing you know a parent is filing a lawsuit claiming the rule is being unevenly enforced, and a judge strikes down the rule. The school throws up their hands and says “We’re in a no-win situation here”. And indeed they are. No matter what they do, somebody is going to be unhappy and somebody is going to sue.
Or worse, the school lets in a guy for an “exception”, a fight breaks out, and people are injured or shot. The school gets sued for allowing him in.
It’s interesting to watch our conservative friends go “wobbly” about enforcing rules when it’s one they don’t personally like or that affects their own kid.
Lester: I did read your post, you referred to a Latin gang thusly:
“Yep, he’s wearing his hat tilted to the right, a signal that he’s part of a Chicago Latin gang affiliated with Folk Nation.”
My point was that, with one picture, you jumped to the conclusion that the young man was “still a gangster” in spite of no evidence he ever was. Would it be fair of me to conclude that, as you state you are in law enforcement, you label all young men that look like him as gangsters? I know a few young men that wear their pants very baggy & way too low, not because they’re gangsters or wannabes, but because it’s the style among their peers [also not gangsters, just schoolkids].
As a basic rule, I think the no drinking rule is a way to prohibit adults from attending. That rule doesn’t seem unreasonable at all. I’ll be the fuddy-dud here, and ask ‘do I really want my 16-year old daughter hanging around with a 21- or 22-year old guy?’ I’m sorry, this just sounds like trouble ready to take place.
Lester - What about the picture makes you think this kid “still thinks he’s a gangster.” Is it because he looks Latino?
That’s what you said. I don’t think he’s a gangster because he’s Latino. I think he’s a gangster by the way he wears his hat. That’s evidence #1. Evidence #2: he’s tilting it o the right, signaling he’s in a Latin gang (newsflash: Latinos don’t join black or white gangs). Evidence #3: he’s young and from Chicago. The prevalence of young Latinos joining a gang are higher in Chicago than in most other big cities.
Would I label all that look like him as gangsters? No. But I would look at them more carefully because they exhibit all the signs and traits of gang members.
Please don’t tell me your against profiling.
I haven’t read all of the responses but this is mine:
Everyone has to follow the same rules. The reason schools have this rule is because those over 21 can drink before they ever come to the “Prom” — it doesn’t create a healthy atmosphere for teenagers. The Marine might not have known the rule, but I’m sure his date knew. Rules for school parties, proms, etc are known, printed and distributed to everyone.
It’s no different than a girl who is engaged to marry a guy 21 years old, their wedding is two weeks after graduation…… he wouldn’t be allowed to attend either.
I read somewhere on this thread about a teacher, or some other adult being over 21, but that has no bearing on the situation.
Drinking among teens is a serious problem. If there were a handful of guys attending proms who had been drinking beforehand, and there were no rules to prohibit the age of 21 attendees, then there would be NOTHING the school could do about it.
And we wonder why drinking, etc, has become such a problem in our High Schools? Young teens look up to older ‘kids’ or adults, many think its very sophisticated to drink.
Victoria (29): If there were a handful of guys attending proms who had been drinking beforehand, and there were no rules to prohibit the age of 21 attendees, then there would be NOTHING the school could do about it.
Frank: Pish. AND tosh. They can enforce rules of proper behavior — no driving while impaired, no public drunkenness, no belligerence — rather than rules based merely on the fear of what a 21-year-old might have consumed before the dance.
Let’s imagine for a moment an America — an American community, really — where drinking was viewed with Christian liberty and responsibility. IOW, wine being “a gift of God that gladdens the hearts of men” being taught right alongside “do not linger long at the wine.”
IOW, enjoy God’s gift in moderation.
If that were the case — if a 21 year old had a glass of wine with dinner before going to the prom — so what? As long as he’s not driving impaired or stumbling, slurring and belligerent, who cares if he had been “drinking beforehand”?
The issue is a person’s behavior, which evidences the state of his heart — not what he consumes (Matt. 15:11).
Victoria (29): And we wonder why drinking, etc, has become such a problem in our High Schools? Young teens look up to older ‘kids’ or adults, many think its very sophisticated to drink.
Frank: Which speaks to the sorry way parents are teaching their kids about drink today: Either not at all, or from fearful prohibitionism. “Deeeeeee-mon RUM! Lips that touch wine shall never touch mine!!”
America has become so hypocritical and two-faced — advertising “to adults” the free-and-breezy (and boozy and sexy) lifestyle associated with drinking — the pretended “sophisticattion” with which you are rightly concerned — while also teaching our kids that ALCOHOL IS A POISON AND A DEADLY DRUG, and enforcing such a tight-fisted anti-drinking mindset that a young man can’t attend the prom with his girlfriend MERELY because he is of legal drinking age — whether or not he’s even a drinker!
With simplistic thinking like this, soon boys won’t be admitted to dances at all. After all, they have penises, and — well, we know what those are for …
I admit I’m troubled by a blanket “nobody 21 or over.” An 18-year-old dating a 21-year-old is not automatically a problem; she’s actually probably more likely to get married to him than she would if they were both 18. I think the school could say all in attendance must be students (for space reasons) or all over a certain age must receive permission ahead of time. But if the event is being chaperoned, problem behavior will be disciplined, and it’s hard for me to see that the average 21-year-old is going to cause more problems at a high-school event than the average 17- or 18-year-old will!
On THIS particular story, the girl knew the rules, and they should have been enforced. The school refunding her ticket and even paying for her dress seems excessive; she knew the rules and chose to buy tickets anyway. It really is her problem. She should have requested an exception, and they should have granted one. But not having done so, she should have been held to the rules.
I sure don’t see in the picture any evidence that the girl’s boyfriend is wearing his cap in a gang manner!
Cheryl D. (31): I sure don’t see in the picture any evidence that the girl’s boyfriend is wearing his cap in a gang manner!
Frank: Nor do I.
But then again, you and I are mere citizens … not extremely dedicated, highly trained, thoroughly experienced and keenly attentive law enforcement officers:
Perhaps it would be plainly evident to the rest of us if, say, the photo was of a wider angle and we could see his droopin’ draws, the gang tattoos, the Glock in his hand, and all his homies standing around him throwing gang signs.
I wonder if his hairline offers us any details as to his racial and ethnic background?
[/sarcasm]
Frank YOU POST:
Frank,
Kids are not allowed by LAW to drink under the age of 21 in MOST states.
Since your leanings are Libertarian, I’m not surprised at YOUR lackadaisical approach to teens drinking, or ‘trying’ to blame their inability to drink sensibility on their parents.
Un-twisting your ideas of who is teaching whom, and who is reponsbile might help. There are millions of parents who care deeply about their children, are are doing all they can to teach them what is right, and what will hurt them.
High Schools have rules, and those rules are there for a reason, they aren’t there so that those of you who believe you can make your own rules (Libertarian) or break them at will are going to get away with it. The young girl found out very quickly that the rules were made for her, just as they were made for every other student in her school.
One thing about this that bothers me is it’s more of the same American nonsense that kids must be kept away from adults as much as possible. (The “stranger danger” idea.) Being 21 magically makes a person dangerous. Now, there may indeed be reasons to keep non-high schoolers out of a high-school event…but probably there are good reasons to keep teen boys and girls away from each other also! My inclination, were I holding an event for high schoolers, would be that all kids must seek permission to bring anyone who wasn’t from that specific school, even kids from another high school. If a girl wanted to bring a 35-year-old date, it would raise a red flag. A 21-year-old Marine wouldn’t.
Cheryl,
High School proms, and parties are just that, they are for High School students. Some parents don’t care, but the vast majority of us DO CARE, and those who are 21 and over are not included within H.S dances.
Many schools will NOT ALLOW anyone who is not either an 11th grade or Senior attend Proms, and more IMPORTANT they must be attending the school in which the prom is for. It is much easier to control a party when the teachers, etc, KNOW who the kids are. These are safeguards which are put in place due to the problems we face as parents of teens.
Victoria, if High School proms are FOR High School students, then I think your conclusion is exactly backwards.
Not only are High School proms FOR High School students (a generic statement), but THAT particular High School prom was for THAT particular high school student. In other words, every high school individual has but one and only one senior prom.
That night was HER special night. And she chose HER escort, a military man in uniform. In my experience, young men and women put almost as much effort into prom attendance as they do a wedding ceremony. A young woman’s escort will be her very special choice. Her dress will be also be chosen with the utmost care for style and elegance. She anticipates a night of romance and special attention from a man.
Her escort will arrive a the house in a limo, wearing a tux (if she’s lucky. A young man’s prom may be the first time he put on a tux.) They will drive to the prom in style. They will dance, talk, laugh and have fun and at the end of the night, her escort will dance that special slow dance of the evening. Perhaps afterward the couple will get a little dinner and her escort will return her to her parents with her honor in tact.
She has only one chance to get this right and if it were up to her, it would go right. But it isn’t strictly up to her. A perfect romantic night depends on two people, she and her escort. And so the choice of escort is very important. She needs someone of maturity that won’t mess things up.
And she doesn’t need a school official to give her escort permission to attend, only to ask him to leave after 30 minutes, especially before the final dance.
And, more generally, you are not in favor of rules governing kids’ behavior?
I’m in favor of rules. I’m not in favor of those who hide behind them. Typically, bureaucrats will hide behind the rules in order to avoid responsibility or criticism. Institutions hide behind rules and policies in order to avoid criticism or law suits.
When a principle, teacher, police officer, public official makes a judgment call, that official can be held responsible for the decisions they make. But a “rule” can’t be sued. And so we hear the mantra, “Sorry I’d like to help you but the rules are the rules.”
The fact is, we can’t make enough rules to fit every situation in life. And even if we could, we could never remember them all. A better course would be to seek wisdom and apply wisdom and judgment to various situations in life.
And in a free society, we ought to encourage each other to make wise decisions and to take personal responsibility for them. And as a free society, we must constantly decide whether we want leaders who play it safe and hide behind “the rules” or leaders who share those qualities we appreciate in a leader: vision, daring, savvy, persistence, courage, and a willingness to make and defend good decisions.
We need people who will be willing to bend or break the rules when wisdom and good judgment dictate it and be willing to unashamedly defend that decision among peers, and those whom they serve.
We disagree Roger.
The High Schools in our area have some of the highest academic records in the US, not only that, they have the SAFEST school campus’s. This record speaks for itself.
Some parents become confused, proms aren’t weddings, nor should they be confused with a wedding in which two people say their vows, planning an entire life together.
#33 “Kids are not allowed by LAW to drink under the age of 21 in MOST states.”
Victoria,
This statement came up on another thread recently, and a few of us looked up some info regarding various state laws and found that, in fact, most states do not prohibit young people under 21 from drinking under the supervision of their own parents.
I agree with Frank that it is parents’ responisibity to teach their children about drinking. Some parents do think it is best to abstain from all alcoholic beverages and will of course teach their children that also (though it will certainly be more effective if they clearly explain how alcohol as a beverage differs today from in Bible times rather than simply labelling it as sin). Others, like my husband and I and many others, including Frank apparently, believe that drinking in moderation is perfectly acceptable, and that young people who learn to drink responsibly will be less likely to yearn to try the “forbidden fruit” when they have already tasted it. It’s an acquired taste, and kids often don’t even like it if they’re allowed a sip.
That’s fair from a “lackadaisical” approach to teen drinking. I can teach my son moderation in drinking (though in fact he plans to be a lifelong teetotaller) while at the same time warning him of the dangers of irresponsible drinking.
Pauline YOU QUOTED ME AS POSTING (33)..
“Kids are not allowed by LAW to drink under the age of 21 in MOST states.”
That is the law in California and many other states. However it does not pertain to children who are offered a small amount AT HOME given to them BY THEIR PARENTS, that is acceptable, no one was arguing that point here.
In the state of California, a child may not be given alcohol outside their own home. A parent cannot offer an alcoholic beverage to anyone’s child but their OWN, within their home or anywhere else. If anyone offers an individual, (other than their child) under the age of 21 an alcoholic beverage they are committing a crime in the state of California, whether it’s in THEIR HOME, or elsewhere.
#40
Victoria,
Frank talked in #30 about what parents teach their own children about drinking. I would think that most of that teaching would be at home, and that what he had in mind was parents giving their children a small amount at home - or rather, the failure of so many parents to teach their children about drinking in that manner.
Since you didn’t mention the exception regarding drinking supervised by parents in their own homes, I thought you - or those reading your comment - might be unaware of it, as many people are. There are parents who are afraid that they will be breaking the law by allowing their children a sip of alcohol just to see what it tastes like.
Pauline, as you mentioned in post #39 we had gone over this subject regarding kids having a small amount of wine, given to them by THEIR PARENTS. I saw no need to bring the subject up again.
The topic is ‘proms’ it isn’t whether or not kids can taste wine at home with their parents.
I covered what I believe and why in post #29.