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Polygamy and religious rights
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Lab technicians in Texas are sorting the DNA of 437 children removed from their polygamous families earlier this month, but bloodlines are not the only lines blurred in the case. It’s also raising questions about the government’s power over religious belief.
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) face the charge of blending religious belief with child abuse. Investigators are determining whether the children from the Yearning for Zion (YFZ) ranch - including 41 with broken bones or previous fractures - exhibit evidence of mistreatment.
Those testifying in the case have already employed strong language against the FLDS sect, saying it is an abusive belief system in which girls marry young because they are “ruthlessly indoctrinated from birth to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation.”
It is because of this ruthless indoctrination that some claim the authoritarian teachings of the FLDS church are abusive in and of themselves. One Child Protective Services investigator explained her view to the Texas district judge saying, “This is a population of women who appear to have a problem making a decision on their own.”
Such blanket statements have raised fears among religious watchdog groups that – amid a rightful campaign against child abuse – we’re setting a dangerous precedent against religious freedom. Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberties Commission, says that the very real need to protect children “does not give government officials a blank check to use children’s “welfare” as a subterfuge to justify governmental intrusion or to disrupt any practice it finds vaguely weird.”
Some fear the FLDS case presages a time when children will be removed from their homes – not on proof of abuse – but because of their parents’ staunchly religious views. According to Land, however, the mixed blessing of the recent scandal in
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Don’t blame racism
“when children will be removed from their homes – not on proof of abuse – but because of their parents’ staunchly religious views.”
Actually, the children were removed from their homes on a pretense of abuse (fake anonymous call). The real reason for their removal was because the government didn’t want to dish out the welfare checks. The fathers had all their unmarried “wives” file for welfare. That’s a lot of money going to a group that the government doesn’t have control over.
The irony is that the only reason this group could exists in the first place, is BECAUSE of the government. There’s no way the fathers could have afforded all those wives and children without the government.
That’s my theory anyway.
Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant
Apr 28 03:45 PM US/Eastern
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer
SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect’s ranch have been pregnant.
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
Victoria - Doesn’t that just break your heart, as it does mine?
I know that some have argued that it used to be common for girls of 15 or 16 to marry. But girls/women of any age being forced to marry & “give” themselves to a man they don’t love is sickening.
My younger daughter is 15-going-on-16 (in June). She is a late bloomer, emotionally, so in many ways she’s still “little girl-ish”. If some man put his hands on her…I’d want to shoot him!
And I’m sure there are other “little girls” like my daughter in that cult. May God save & deliver them.
Now this is a just plain tacky comment, but here goes anyway.
I’m not too bothered by all the ladies wearing a similar style of dress, but the hair-dos, with the pompadour-puffiness in front irks me.
The last line of the article says they were in “spirtual marriages”. Sounds like there was not a marriage license or such. In the ‘real’ world, these young girls would need parental permission to be married.
It is an abusive religious system. The boys became a threat to the ‘men’ and they were thrown away. There are around 400 lost boys who were dumped on the streets.
Karen, it makes me sick. I hold the adults in the entire group accountable, and that also means NO excuses. Their excuses should be held against them, for the abuse inflicted by the males, and the women who urged them to have sex and marry them.
Karen, your remark is well taken.
Another point; WHY all the ‘quaker clothing’ all the covered up pretense of modesty, when the sexual abuse is obvious. Making women wear clothing which merely covers up the sin, covers up pregnancy and a marriage which is unlawful. I call this FAKE imposed modesty, to hide the sins of the men in that commune.
Do any of you who have been following this story know of links substantiating the running off of boys who become threats to the men?
One of the things that people keep saying is similar to Karen O’s “But girls/women of any age being forced to marry….”
Legally, these men can have only one wife, and unless she is of age when they marry after having obtained the proper license, a crime has been committed. There is no way these underaged girls are being forced to “marry” — they are being forcibly raped perhaps, but there is no way we should be talking about “marriages” here where these children are concerned. There is a distinction to be made between what’s happening here and the “standard” polygamous marriage, though it would still be illegal if these girls were of age and consented willingly.
I understand why the cult is coming up with these “defenses” about the government violating their religious rights, but I’m not so sure I want to support the Baptist view. I subscribe to the view that if you’re obeying the law (i.e., not committing massive welfare fraud, not sexually abusing your kids), even if the situation is not “ideal,” there is no way the government would get away with taking these kids. There are polygamous marriages in lots of places, and you don’t see the authorities acting.
I don’t believe the government filled in a blank check here. Yes, there is potential for anti-religious abuse — there always is, but we still have due process in this country. How many girls for how many years would Land subject to these girls to this kind of treatment? What price should these girls pay for religious freedom? I think the authorities held back far too long.
Notice the men wear pants, not loose baggy ones, but jeans and shirts, while the women wear clothes which are not only hot and combersome, but cover up their bodies, …. reminds me of a religious burka, and in the USA!
The clothes and the hair are ways to control these women.
Victoria, you are so right. They are hiding not only at the Yearning for Zion Ranch, but behind their dress and the pretense of modesty. It is a sham. They think that if no one sees what they do, it is ok–that is why they are at the Ranch. But, it is not ok. They cannot plead ignorance. They all knew what they were doing. The children are the victims.
YOU MUST SEE THIS VIDEO
Victoria, Karen O, NJL: just remember that probably any cohesive group that conscientiously goes against the grain will have modes of dress, speech, and other habit that appear overly conformist to outsiders.
Satirists like the folks behind Larknews.com have made hay, for instance, out of evangelical tendencies like installing “As for me and my house…” signs in our front entries, putting fish signs on the back bumper, and saying “just” a lot in public prayer. (At least five families in my church have those signs, and I’m starting to feel like an outsider
)Not nearly so extreme, of course, but still group tendencies.
It’s difficult to establish how much of the tendency is the result of being controlled by authority, v. how much is wanting to do what friends, whom we admire and respect, are doing.
RR,
Comparing ‘fish’ signs TO ‘quaker clothes’ sexual abuse isn’t to be confused. Burka clothing, and the sin which it is supposed to hide can’t be compared to signs which identify people being Believers.
Their ‘holy underwear’ certainly hasn’t protected those young girls.
Very interesting video. And he was able to able to do the purchase undercover! It is a booming business!
RR, the women who wear burkas and chadors aren’t going against the grain. I have a tendency to wear the same sorts of things year after year, because it is easy and comfortable, but even I choose a different pattern now and again, add some color, etc., etc. Their clothes don’t bother me as much as underage forcible sex does. I have no problem with the way the Amish dress, for instance. Who cares? Conformity to the group in matters of dress is one thing, but if it is not freely adopted — and remember the Amish have rumspringa, they get to choose — there’s an element of absolute control in the dress code. That’s what’s happening here.
RR
If you search ‘Lost boys of Texas FLDS’ there are links to articles on many of the FLDS groups. They are finding Lost boys from other groups. It is not just the Texas group. YZR is mentioned, but no numbers are given. I may have mislead and apologize. Thank you for your question.
Grandma, the boys must feel badly when they are asked to leave. Such a strange bunch to throw out young men, but it most likely is done so that the old men have no competition with under age girls.
I’m with NJLawyer on this one. This is definitely a dangerous cult (theologically speaking), and there may very well be immoral or even illegal things that occurred, but for the government to raid their compound and send all the children into foster homes (based on a false rumor, in fact) is disgraceful and scary.
It may have been a rumor, but it has certainly not been false. The tale-teller obviously had some inclination that something was not right in Yearning For Zion!
What would an option be? To go in and start asking questions, then leave and come back for more information, then threaten them if they didn’t clean it up? Sort of like a toxic waste dump? They probably would have just devised a plan to distribute the guilty victims about the country until things cooled off then went about their “business” as usual.
Per my post number 2, this is more than enough reason to have taken these children away, and begin an intensive investigation.
“Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.”
We face a real looming problem with 1st Amendment Freedom of Religion rights clashing with ‘religions’ that are inherently toxic to some of the practitioners, or to a lot of innicent bystanders.
KRM,
When child abuse, or sexual abuse enters the arena of ‘freedom’ then PROTECTION of those who will, or could be harmed takes precedence, over a so called ‘religion’ -
Polygamy has long been outlawed, but continues within some parts of the US - Some secretly indulge in this activity, and others are more widely known. I believe the case in Texas needs to be made an example.
I have paid special attention to many of the interviews of the wives. Evidently MOST of them are not happy, as time goes by, the first wife, who was ‘legally married’ is the leader of all the other so called ’spirit wives’ - She can decide who does what, and when it will be done. It has also come to light of all the jealousy among the women —- who receives special gifts, etc. After a young girl is married off at 13 or 14, with children, she has no place to go, except to stay and put up with whatever kind of treatment comes her way.
We wouldn’t allow any religion in our community to force or allow children to marry old men, just because it were a religion, with other women in the same family sharing the same husband, so why should this be allowed under FREEDOM of RELIGION? It makes no sense!
Mitcon - 22
YOU WRITE:……“They probably would have just devised a plan to distribute the guilty victims about the country until things cooled off then went about their “business” as usual.”
I believe you hit the target with that answer.
I agree that the law has been broken and these young children have been abused, but I stand amazed that the same media that cover this story also bring us the society page details of the baby shower for seventeen-year-old Jamie Lynn Spears, younger sister of Brittany Spears.
Momofsix, try and separate the stories.
What does a story regarding a ‘baby shower’ have to do with child abuse?
Momofsix, the same media brings us thousands of stories. Why would the media exclude a story regarding Jamie Lynn Spears, ….. not that all of us would be interested, but some people would be. The media reports on ALL the news -
I believe what the Polygamists are doing in egregious child abuse. I am speaking of degrees. Jamie Lynn Spears is in the very same age range as the pregnant teen brides in Texas. My point is not the news, but the fact that we, as a society, are guilty of sexualizing our young girls by prost-a-tot clothing and a constant barrage of scantily clad men and women. Most top 40 songs that are mainstream are sexual in nature. I just think that the Texas case is an EXTREME case of what we see everyday and accept. We should be just as angry about what parents allow their children to see, hear, and do that IS culturally acceptable.
Now, I am not