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The Navy recently released John McCain’s military records, but if you were hoping for any startling revelations, you’ll probably be disappointed:
From his five years in a North Vietnamese prison camp to his tenure as the Navy’s liaison to the Senate, John McCain’s Navy record boils down to a series of unadorned paragraphs that bestow upon him some of the nation’s top military honors.
A nice contrast to the controversy that surrounded John Kerry’s Vietnam War record during the last presidential election.
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I believe the main difference between McCain and Kerry was that McCain actually served in a sacrificial manner.
Kerry, on the other hand, merely used the military as a means to further his own fortunes and political goals. That is not service. What little real service he actually performed was merely incidental to his more self-centered purpose. The Swift Boat Vets were correct about Kerry.
I had trouble with the link. This one works, if anyone else has a problem.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080508/D90H5S3O0.html
What I found impressive was this;
Still, he declined an offer of early release until those who had been at the prison longer than him were let go.
That decision earned McCain a Navy Commendation Medal. Although McCain was “crippled from serious and ill-treated injuries,” he steadfastly refused offers of freedom from those holding him prisoner. “His selfless action served as an example to others and his forthright refusal, by giving emphasis to the insidious nature of such releases, may have prevented a possibly chaotic deterioration in prisoner discipline,” the citation says.
He could have given in, and given his condition, lesser men probably would have. He did not. He’s definately Commander in Chief material.
I also found this, and it’s an interesting read. But a bit hard to read as well. It deals with his time as a POW.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/specials/mccain/articles/0301mccainbio-chapter3.html
And I would just like to ask that this not turn into some comparison between him and Kerry. Read the link in post 3. McCain’s merits stand just fine on their own. There really is no comparison to be made. Both Kerry and Bush coulda learned alot from this man, and what true service to country really means.
Oh the Dems will swiftboat McCain. They are just waiting for their little nominee problem to get resolved. My prediction is they will spring something after the convention, perhaps an October surprise.
It will all have occured, of course, during the time McCain was held in solitary in the early part of his capture. No witnesses. Only insinuations. The hardest thing to prove is that you didn’t do something.
Maybe you’re right, Adios. It will be interesting to see them try, anyway. When I first heard about the thing The Real AJ mentioned in 2, that was it. McCain is a little wishy washy on some issues I care about. Even so, I’d just about vote for Hillary if she exhibited the kind of character and grit McCain apparently possesses. Unless he turns out to be a closet KKK member, pedophile, or al-Qaeda sleeper agent, he’s pretty much got my vote locked up.
I am probably going to vote for McCain, although I disagree vehemently with some of his positions on important issues - he is too equivocal on pro-life issues to me, too eager to please the opposite side of the aisle, too willing to fall in line with the global warming - human linkage garbage, etc.
His personal heroism and sacrifice of the best years of his life for this country are without a doubt a very big driver of my respect for him. I hope it is not misplaced.
Based on his military record, I can trust that McCain will strive to do what he considers to be the best thing for the country and for the ideals it represents. And I suspect that he and I would agree on those ideals, even if we might disagree on how to best honor - or implement - them sometimes.
I cannot say, even remotely, the same thing for the Democratic candidate.
Interesting that Kristin couldn’t just talk about McCain’s fine record. Instead she had to get a personal slam in against someone else who served this country honorably.
If Christians are just as mean and cutting as the rest of the world, one wonders of what benefit their faith is.
Anlir:
“A nice contrast to the controversy that surrounded John Kerry’s Vietnam War record during the last presidential election” is not a slam against Senator Kerry; it is a slam against the controversy that surrounded the last election. Her point is that you won’t find any fodder in McCain’s record that will take the upcoming election debates away from the real issues facing this country.
Why are so many so eager to misrepresent Christians these days? Don’t paint us all with the same brush…it is truly narrow-minded.
Wll, Nitrobob, if conservative Christians had not engaged so gleefully in the “swiftboating” of John Kerry, those of us who are not Christians might be inclined to believe there really is something different about Christians.
Anlir: Let’s be clear about the record. All McCain’s records have been released; we are still waiting for Kerry to release all his records and not a redacted version. It is not mean spirited to seek the truth from a candidate or a former candidate.
Ivan,
See, that’s part of the smear campaign that conservative Christians engage in. It’s why the rest of us think your faith doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
When it comes to politics, conservative Christians are just as mean, nasty, unfair, and underhanded as anyone else.
It’s interesting Anlir that you display the same meanness that displeases you as a close to #8 and would have us think is not part of your compassionate character in #10.
Since you can prove no relationship between the Christian community at large, your proffered, yet baseless, “gleefulness,” and the Swiftboat revelations about a man who clearly relished his celebrity from bashing the US military before congress and pandered it into a career, why would you bring it up? Seemingly not from compassion or interest in the Christian lifestyle.
“See, that’s part of the smear campaign that conservative Christians engage in.”
Asking Kerry to release his military records is a smear campaign?
Unbelievable.
Hey Anlir,
This post is about McCain, in my view, an american hero. It’s not about your gripes against conservative christians. Why not take that down to the rants and raves post, where it’d be more appropriate?
#4 The real AJ,
As a 2 tour Vietnam Veteran, who served in the US Navy on an FPB, I would appreciate it if you would not lump President Bush in with Komrade Koward Kerry who was a traitor to his country, given a bad conduct discharge by the Navy, aided and abetted the enemy in time of war, met with and negotiated with the enemy in time of war as an active duty US Naval Officer without permission of the Navy, the President as Commander in Chief or the US government and never served one day of his required weekend and summer duty as a reserve Naval Officer after he was granted a re;lease from his Active duty he was obligated to complete.
Anlir has no idea what he is talking about and he knows it. Maybe Anlir can get this traitor, WHO COMMITEED AT LEAST 3 ACT FO TREASON AGAINST HIS COUNTRY, to release his military records that would easily, quickly, painlessly and without question set the record straight. Any man with a good military record would have no problem doing so when attacked as this man, if you can call him that, was attacked by people like me. Men like John McCain and others who run for office routinely release their military records as a matter of course - but KKK refuses to do so.
It is obvious that this man is guilty as charged. One must also recognize and that only a fool would think his complete military record has not already been secretly released to his accusers by a military that hates him more than Jane Fonda.
Kerry was warned by the Swift Boaters not to run for President and he ignored the warning. He was told that if he dropped out and or was defeated the Swift Boaters would go away. They kept their promise and have been truthful to a fault. Kerry was also warned that if he won the presidency his records would be released and charges of treason would be sought against him by the Swift Boaters.
One day Kerry’s official military record will be made public by others. You can count on it Anlir.
ANLIR:
Kindly point out the ’smear.’
Llama’s word are a perfect example of the viscousness that conservative Christians have become so well known for. It totally negates any Christians witness on here and elsewhere.
If it’s true, is it vicious? (note the correct spelling, by the way)
If something is viscous, that means it’s thick. I’m not sure that describes Llama’s post very well.
Durn. I’m not sure I spelled it correctly either..
Well it was. It just looked funny after I posted.
Funny how whenever someone here criticizes a Left-winger or asks hard questions about a Left-wing nabob, the howl immediately goes up about how ‘unChristian’ and ‘vicious’ we all are. The Left cannot ABIDE examination.
ANLIR:
For the second time, kindly point out the ’smear.’
ANLIR-
I’d be curious exactly what sort of a “Christian witness” you’re looking for. Llama seems earnest and passionate, which he should be, as a “2 tour Vietnam Veteran.” He’s called you no names and made an intelligent response to your argument, an honor for any opponent in a debate.
Exactly how have the Christians on this blog failed to give you a compassionate and honorable witness?
Personally I hold John Heinz-Kerry only a few notches above the frauds and faker impostors one reads about in Army Times. Guys go buy a chest full of ribbons and skill badges for nonexistent war wounds from nonexistent service. (This month’s Army Times features a fraud whose scars came from liposuction! You all should check out authentiseal dotcom or phonyveterans dotcom)
Someone above made the remark that McCain is to be admired for not accepting early release. All soldiers, airmen, sailors marines and naval aviators too are bound by the Code of Conduct. The code was adopted after captured USA troops in the Korean War allowed themselves to be used for enemy propaganda purposes. So McCain’s refusal to accept early repatriation was consistent with the Code he and all of us live by. Admirable, but he was only doing what was expected of him.
Anlir et al: Let me try some honey instead of vinegar.
Christians lie, cheat, steal, swear and a host of other things just as non-Christians do. It is sad when they do because it betrays a lot of what Jesus stands for.
Their behavior is not what makes them a Christian even as behavior doesn’t make one a non-Christian. The only thing necessary to become a Christian is a profession of faith that Jesus is Savior. That his actions on the Cross satisfied the justice demanded by a loving but holy God for the atonement of our sins.
Part and parcel with that profession of faith is a commitment to learn more of God’s ways and to follow them as much as is humanly possible with the help of God.
That is where it gets sticky. Some of us have reasonable success in learning and following the ways of God, some of us don’t seem to make a lot of progress.
Non-christians judge us by our actions, Christians try to judge each other by discerned intentions. But our successes or failures don’t make us any less Christian just as the successes and failures of a non-christian don’t make them any more non-Christian.
I don’t mind it when you point out our flaws as you perceive them. As a matter of fact, in my personal life I welcome it because it gives me a chance to evaluate how good or bad my witness is and to make fresh new commitments daily to trying to be more obedient.
I hope that someday you will be persuaded by all of the “good” things Christians do that confirm their testimony so that you will see Christ.
I also hope that those of us who comment here will continue to be mindful that there are non-Christians who are part of the WOW family and that we can do a better job in modeling Christ.
Anlir, #10: What did the Swifties say about John Kerry which turned out to be false? Kerry camp and the DNC should have responded far sooner to control Swiftie damage. The real issue was Kerry’s incomplete and puffed-up war service record vs Bush’s nonservice (or evasion, avoidance?)
Anlir, the only thing vicious in this affair was the treason that Kerry committed against his country.
Get the traitor you defend to release his military records like any other person would do, if not guilty that is, and we will see who is lying.
I stand by my words and they were much less viscous than what he deserves - which is a ‘Navy Noose’ around his neck for his treason.
One fact that is not in dispute and part of public record is that President Carter, on the last day of his presidency, overturned Kerry’s previous bad conduct discharge, as a presidential pardon.
The only thing conservative Christians are known for, as are the Swift Boaters, is their integrity and honesty - unlike others who do not think these things are important.
Llama,
OK, after re-reading my post in 4, I can see why you started spitting. Let me clarify, since I was so inept the first time. My reference to Bush was in how late{Oct,2004} Bush finally released his record. I think he could’ve avoided alot of the controvery by doing it sooner than a month before his re-election. He should have done like McCain has, and done it sooner, is all I meant. If you do an archive search, you’ll see that I defended Bush’s service here numerous times. Just ask Nick Peters.
Now the true service to country remark was directed at Kerry. I agree with you that his actions were treasonous. He dishonored himself, and men like you, with his actions.
I hope I’ve made my statement more clear now. So would you not spit at me anymore? You’re a Llama, and know how bad llama spit stains. There’d be a smiley face here, but I don’t know how.
AJ: smiley face is a colon, followed by the parantheses on the zero. I believe if you put a dash between the colon and parantheses, it gives the smiley a grin, but I am ready to stand corrected if I’m wrong on that.
Ivan,
The “smear” is on John Kerry. He served his country in war and was honorably discharged. Yet Llama calls him a traitor. That’s real Christ-like of you Llama.
*****
But really, the specifics are irrelevant. The issue is that a lot of conservative Christians have become mean, nasty, and vicious. Those of us who are non-Christians look at Christians and see a mean bunch of people who seem to care more about being right-wing Republicans than being good examples of their faith.
*****
Metanoia,
Thanks. You make many good points. I know there are some Christians who set a good example of their faith. But those voices have been pretty much drowned out.
*****
I’m just giving y’all the perspective and perception of how we non-Christians view Christians now. Our perception is that Christians are a mean, judgmental, self-righteous, hypocritical lot who have sold their soul to the Republican Party. If you don’t like that perception, perhaps you should look inward to see if maybe, possibly, you just might have a teensy-eensy little bit to do with that. Maybe you’re perfect and we’re totally off base. I don’t know.
Along those lines, I read a book this past week called “Lord Save us from Your Followers” by Dan Merchant. It should be required reading for conservative Christians.
*****
In any event, to bring this back to the topic at hand, I wish Kristin had taken the high road instead of the low road in her blog about John McCain.
“I’m just giving y’all the perspective and perception of how we non-Christians view Christians now.”
No, you’re not actually. You’re giving Anlir’s view, one that was predisposed at the outset to whine histrionically about all the vicious meanies who prostitute their Christian witness for the sake of Right Wing Politics whether or not they actually do in any particular case. Good grief. Put the maudlin script away; Nobody’s buying the morally grieved and disappointed role.
There was no “slam” in Kristin’s post. None whatsoever. Nobody asked Kerry go politicking on his military record. He made that mistake himself, and his campaign imploded as a result. Anyone could see it coming the moment he marched vets across the stage with him.
Serious George,
Well, you clearly don’t know many non-Christians then. If you think I’m the only one who thinks this stuff, you’re out of your gourd. Survey after survey shows that people have a bad perception of conservative Christians. I hang out with a lot of “heathen” and I can tell you that my points are pretty mild compared to what many of them think.
But, thanks for the verbal punch in the mouth. You make my point better than I did about conservative Christians.
Sorry Anlir. You’re not being credible. You made no point. You came here and started an exaggerated, over-generalized song-and-dance about how Kristin’s post is just another example of how shallow Christian morals are, yet another example of how vicious and mean they are. Well. It isn’t. It isn’t anything of the sort. And those who think calling you on your mischaracterization of Kristin’s post is awful and mean and unchristian need to grow up.
Please don’t consider this a verbal uppercut. Consider it a dope slap {:~) Snap out of it. You can do better.
Regards,
SG
We’re trying to debate you, Anlir, not be mean to you. And we look forward to further(potentially better, well-argued) debates.
Serious George,
Calling me a liar does not engender debate. You’re such a typical Christian.
I didn’t call you a liar.
I said you were wrong. You know the difference.
ANLIR-
Thanks for answering, but the point on John Kerry is his discharge and those portions of his records he refuses to release - which adds questions of his ‘honorable” service. His remarks before Congress were indeed a smear on those he served with; yet no one on the left seems to want to deal with it except to cry ’smear,’ ’swift-boating,’ etc. Until Kerry releases his records there will continue to be questions of his honor and truthfulness. The question those things is not a ’smear’ but a desire to know the truth. It would seem Kerry has something to hide. Obviously, McCain does not.
Name calling by either side does nothing to further the discussion; RE your post #36.
Frankly, your responses remind me of a petulant child backed into a corner who seeks to bring everyone down to his/her level of discourse.
To question the credibility of one’s arguments is not the moral equivalent of calling one a liar.
You blew it Anlir ….. SG didn’t call you a liar and you know it.
Serious George,
In #34 you said I wasn’t being credible. That’s calling someone a liar in my book. Do you call everyone who disagrees with you a liar?
Anlir, you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you a mean, nasty Christian — pot kettle black. You write “people have a bad perception of conservative Christians.” What do you think the perception is of elitist liberals? We can play tit for tat all night, but it’s not worth it.
If Mr. Kerry is the great American soldier you say he is, he would release his military records. Obviously, you don’t have it in you to ask the questions: Why won’t he release them? What is he hiding?
NJ Lawyer,
There’s one big difference between me and the Christians on here: I don’t claim to be a Christian. You and they do.
They claim that Christ has changed their life, yet they remain as mean and hateful as any of us “heathen” do. They claim that they have the love of God in their heart, yet we see words that attack people and denigrate people on a daily basis on here. Whenever I or anyone else points out the hypocrisy, instead of examining their own heart, they attack the messenger. I should add that you’re one of the best at it NJ Lawyer.
Well, pride and arrogance may win conservative Christian style points on here, but according to the Bible that they claim to believe, what they measure out to others will be measured back to them someday.
Anlir
Anlir, disagreeing with you in your mind equals lying, its equivalent to hatefulness, meanness, and not being loved.
Love isn’t giving you a fuzzy-wuzzy fluffy pink answer that we as Believers know WOULD BE a LIE. Love is telling you our beliefs according to the Scripture, you obviously don’t like that love. You want a love which wouldn’t be love if we lied to you, it would be ‘hypocrisy’- You aren’t the messenger of what those of us know and believe the Bible to say, you don’t have a message to deliver.
As far as NJL, you lash out at her because she won’t sit back and take it, and that isn’t the message you want to hear. As long as you believe the way you do, then all you can expect from Believers is constant disagreement.
Victoria,
Where in your Bible does it say to denigrate John Kerry (or any person)? Where in your Bible does it say to call people you don’t agree with a “traitor”? How is that sharing the love of Christ?
Anlir,
Believers aren’t ‘door mats’ - Anyone who is a ‘traitor’ deserves to be called one, that isn’t being unCHRISTIAN.
You have a habit of getting all steamed up when someone disagrees with you, LIAR is one of your favorite’s.
John Kerry got caught - “Swift Boat Vets” - he did it to himself. It won’t do you any good to throw around the word ‘denigrate’ AGAIN, when you don’t like the outcome. Kerry is not an example of being ‘denigrated’ -
Sharing the love of Christ hasn’t a thing to do with making remarks about Kerry and the “Swift Boat Vets” -
Anlir, please. Get over your past, and don’t play psych out with me. This is an old trick liberals use. As soon as a Christian disagrees with a liberal, the first thing we hear is how we’re supposed to be “Christian” about all the insults and all the other nonsense you guys dish out. If a Christian disagrees with you, he/she automatically becomes “unChristian.” It’s ridiculous, and I’m not intimidated. Victoria’s right about that. I don’t sit back and take the horsepucky.
I notice instead of answering my questions, you went into a “personal” attack — and that’s okay with me. I’m a big girl, and I can take it.
Again, what is your guy Kerry hiding, and why can’t we know what’s in his military records? Isn’t he proud of his service?
And as for what you claim to be: you seem to be claiming to be some sort of superior being because you’re not a Christian, when in fact, you haven’t learned to defend yourself and stand your ground. Don’t lay your deficiencies at my feet.
And just so you know, Jesus Christ always called a dog a dog and a cat a cat, so no, it’s not denigrating someone to point out the truth about him.
Anlir,
You are backsliding. Can you not debate the points without attacking your opponents? Has anyone attacked you personally?
Address the fact that Kerry has not released his military records. Bush did, McCain did, why not Kerry?
Stick to the subject and leave personal attacks off.
Make it Man,
It’s all a matter of perspective. I think it’s unseemly (and un-Christian) to personally denigrate a man who served his country in wartime. Unlike the leadership of the Republican party who avoided serving in Vietnam, John Kerry volunteered for service and willingly went to Vietnam. And what thanks does he get? He gets called a “traitor” and verbally spit on by Republicans, including conservative Christians. How low can people go?
And why shouldn’t I be allowed to criticize (”attack” - your definition) conservative Christians? Your side criticizes (”attacks”) non-Christians with gusto on here. Or are you saying that conservative Christians should be exempt from criticism?
I’ve been personally attacked repeatedly on this site and you have never one time asked your fellow conservative Christians to “leave personal attacks off”. So why are you asking me to?
I’ll say one thing: conservative Christians are thick. They think they can win converts to Christ by denigrating people, by insulting them, by being uncivil toward them. I’m here to tell y’all - it’s not going to work.
The resident whiner, moan, groan, cry, weep, oh they have treated me badly again. They are uncivil, critical, oh how awful.
If only they would agree with the whiner, everything would be all fussy and light, pink and bright. LOL
Did I say “fussy” ? it could have been ‘fuzzy’ - LOL
Anlir: An addendum to my post #26 when I said that I hope you’ll see some of the good things that Christians contribute to making the world a better place.
Yesterday it was announced that OPEC nations hardly contribute anything at all to humanitarian crisis. Saudi Arabia has contributed only $50,000 to the World Food Program while the U.S. has contribute over $326 million and Canada has contributed over $132 million.
Nations where the Gospel has had its strongest impact (in other words “Christian” nations) are by far the most generous people when it comes to calamities and crisis. “Christian” nations even feed those who are and may be our potential enemies.
I suppose one can make a case that there are plenty of non-Christians in Canada and the U.S. but the ethical foundation of both of those countries is without a doubt “Christian.”
In the big picture, the testimony of Christianity is far better than that of any religion. Again where the Gospel has taken root the quality of life in those countries is vastly better than where other religions thrive.
Sometimes when we fail our dirty laundy is aired as a witness to how we betray Christ. Often the work of the Gospel (building hospitals, feeding the poor, clothing the naked etc.) gets lost in the shuffle. Christians and “Christian” nations are almost always at the lead in humanitarian causes.
I choose to take pride and comfort in that and continue to work on the weaknesses and flaws.
Anlir, here it is in a nutshell. You wrote the following to MIM:
“And why shouldn’t I be allowed to criticize (”attack” - your definition) conservative Christians? Your side criticizes (”attacks”) non-Christians with gusto on here. Or are you saying that conservative Christians should be exempt from criticism?”
Criticize all you want, but don’t then turn around and tell Christians that it is “unseemly” when they respond. This is typical of liberals. You want to be able to lob anything and everything at us, but we have to adopt only the “meek and mild” Jesus response. Here’s news for you. Jesus Christ never hesitated to directly contradict the pharisees of his day, which is why we won’t hesitate to take the same stand with the pharisees of our day.
Guess who’s the pharisee here? In case you’re wondering, the answer is YOU!
Again, address the questions at issue. Why won’t Kerry release his military records, and more to the point, why don’t liberals ask for them? What are you afraid of? If your guy is A-OK, there’s no problem with releasing the records, right? Doesn’t it bother you that they are not released? Why all the dishonesty?
The truly sad thing about liberals is how they insert the ring into their own nose and just follow party line. And this will translate to the current election, too. Not one of the liberals who post here is willing to ask Obama how he plans to effect this great change he keeps talking about. How will that be done? Do you really believe that he can walk up to Congress and say “vote the way I want you to” and they’re going to do it? Are you guys that gullible?
Anlir (#48):
Perhaps a simple analogy will help you to understand the lay of the land here. As a military man, when I am fighting the enemy on the physical battlefield, I couldn’t care less whether I insult him, act uncivil towards him, denigrate him, etc. Actually, my goal is to do worse than that. I want to kill him.
However, when the setting changes, I can sit down with a man who was my enemy on the battlefield and have a civil, respectful conversation with him—if he is willing. We can even talk about things like God, Jesus Christ, the afterlife, helping the poor, loving our neighbors, etc.
While it is not a perfect analogy, there are some similarities to the situation on this blog site. When I am talking about John Kerry’s politics or his military record, I am not trying to “win someone to Christ” or sugarcoat the facts to be polite. My Christianity will restrain me from being crude or obscene in my comments, but I will not hesitate to say that I don’t like the man’s past behavior, his apparent motivations, or his current goals. In my opinion, his acts came as close as possible to downright treason without crossing the political line of that era that would have gotten him arrested. In fact, in other more honest eras of our history, he would have been arrested, put before a court martial and punished for traitorous and dishonorable behavior. His supposedly outstanding military record is a farce, cobbled together from fabricated reports by Mr. Kerry himself. He is not a military hero. His military records—that he still refuses to release for public inspection—would confirm that, IF he were an honest man, which his is not.
Now you may call my comments uncivil, denigrating, insulting, and a failure in my efforts to win others over to Christ. But the point is, at this stage of the game that is not what I’m about. We are talking politics, not salvation. But there is some overlap; as I said before, my Christianity restrains me from being crude and obscene, but it does not prevent me from being brutally honest with the facts.
Frankly, I believe you are being disingenuous in this whole discussion. In order to give yourself an unfair advantage in the political discussions, you simply assert that we are not allowed to criticize you or your opinions. That is un-Christian you say, unkind, uncivil, insulting, blah, blah, blah.
That is nonsense. This is a political discussion, not a church meeting. You cannot, with any credibility, employ the cheap and underhanded tactic of dismissing the messenger and his facts by labeling them as unkind, uncivil, etc. That is just the last-ditch stand of a defeated whiner.
Metanoia,
You are right - Christians have done and continue to do many wonderful things, and they are to be praised for it. However, I don’t think that should give them a free pass on everything else.
Look how furious they get whenever someone points out some of the “flaws”. I’m being relentlessly attacked on here for pointing out some of the hypocrisy and hatefulness that conservative Christians have become so well known for. It’s pretty clear that the Golden Rule does not apply around here. I call it “smash mouth” Christianity. We see a lot of that on here.
*****
NJLawyer,
You can do or say anything you like. You can be as mean and hateful as you want to be toward me or anyone else. And I will continue to point out the hypocrisy of those who claim the love of Christ in their hearts, but treat others like crap. If you were the last Christian on earth, I wouldn’t listen to you about your relationship to Christ.
But I thank you for making my point for me: being a Christian does not make any difference in a person’s life.
Anlir: There are times when I get defensive when my faults are pointed out. I’m not sure anyone likes their faults pointed out.
For decades Christians lingered around the fringes of politics. They weren’t part of the dialogue and subsequently many of the values they hold were challenged and often dismantled by those who were engaged in the debate and dialogue.
In the 1970’s Christians decided to be part of the dialogue. By that time the tide toward secularism had turned. Christians were playing cultural catch up. Many were, and continue to be angry. Angry at our politicians for undermining the Christian values that were the warp and woof of our country, angry at themselves for sitting idly by while our country unraveled morally, angry at secularists who seized the opportunity to change the moral fabric.
There was a time when being a Christian in America didn’t hardly raise an eyebrow because it was the dominant culture. But in the past 4 decades Christians have indeed come under attack and in many ways our own value system is being used as one of the weapons.
Most Christians I know do not believe we are being given a free pass on anything. In fact, we are held to a standard that is the ideal but having to be lived out by real people. In the heat of this battle fire is often fought with fire. It is how most people Christian or non-Christian will respond. This is not an excuse, it is my observation. Flawed people on both sides of the aisle are engaged in a cultural war.
The only thing I see that will bring a cease fire is to determine if the principles we are fighting about and for are true.
Is the Kerry/McCain issue a political issue, or is it one about morality (honesty and integrity?) Are the statements being made about McCain/Kerry true or not?
If true, they can be factored into the political equation. If false, then there needs to be adequate defense against such charges.
In this specific case, we can throw the political football around and label it that way, or we can ask John Kerry to release his records and clear his name if the facts have been misrepresented.
Until then, I won’t call Kerry any name, but I believe I can question him about why he won’t set the record straight. Others may not be as gracious, but the end result would be the same for me and the “ungracious” ones. Why would anyone in good conscience vote for someone who seems to have something hide? That is not a “swift-boating” of Kerry, McCain, Obama, Clinton, ( fill in the blank.) It is common sense when evaluating a potential candidate for the most powerful job in the world.
Michael Martin,
I thank you for your comments. If I understand you correctly, your focus is on “parsing” the rules of your Christian faith in a way that permits you to, for example, call a man a “traitor” because it’s just politics.
I’ll agree - it’s a convenient way to be a Christian. When there’s a “dirty job” to do (like going after a political opponent), you kind of set your Christianity up on the shelf, and do what you need to do. When you’re done, you pick your Christianity back up, and tell everyone that Jesus loves them.
My focus is on the fact that if Christians claim that the love of God has been shed abroad in their hearts, should their attitudes, language, and actions not reflect that? If Christ makes little or no difference in how you speak to and treat other people, what’s the point in being a Christian?
I work in an office full of conservative Christians. They say some of the meanest, nastiest, unkind, unloving things I’ve ever heard. They cheat, lie, and generally behave no different than the rest of us. They gossip, they talk behind the bosses back, they talk about the people they hate or can’t stand. They curse, they look at internet porn, they take home office supplies. They fight with their spouse, they sneak around, and they get divorced. They have personal and family troubles just like the rest of us. The only difference between me and them is they go to church on Sunday.
And of course, we’re all well aware of the behavior of conservative Christians on here. I think the anonymity allows Christians to express the attitudes that really lurks in their hearts. And it ain’t pretty from where I’m sittin.
From my vantage point, I see actions like Kristin’s, where she took the low road on John Kerry, words like Llama’s where he called Kerry a “traitor”, and the language used by so many of the conservative Christians on this site as part of the same thread. It’s a mean streak that obliterates the central message of Christianity.
So, Anlir, you work in an office with people. Christians are people, and they are just as capable as anyone else of gossipping, etc., etc. We’re all sinners.
You think the only difference between you and those people is that they go to church on Sunday? They go because they know they are sinners. You don’t go because you think you’re better than they are. And that’s how you treat the Christians here, too. What’s more, you WON’T go to church because you don’t want to face what’s really bothering you, what really eats at you at your core. When you resolve that issue, we’ll talk. And lest you think the rest of us haven’t had things to deal with that were/are horrible, think again. You feel sorry for yourself, I understand that, but that’s not my fault, nor is it the fault of any other Christian. You do that to yourself.
Sounds to me like you’re the most miserable person in that office. It’s time for you to learn to let things go.
And just so you know, the central message of Christianity has nothing to do with whether or not John Kerry is a traitor. Of course, we’ll never know the truth there because the records have not been released. Just another person who wants to hide the truth. Who does he sound like?
And here’s something else, Anlir.
I WANT you angry with me. Because that will bring up the issues that are bothering you inside out into the open — at least in your mind.
Anlir,
You said you wouldn’t listen to NJL about her relationship with Christ. You may find this shocking, but I agree with you. I don’t want to talk with you about my relationship with Christ–it’s full of failure on my side.
What He has done, however, should be the focus of Christian witness.
Non-christians judge us by our actions, Christians try to judge each other by discerned intentions.
Interesting point. However, I’d posit that your intentions cause your actions. We are not animals and for the most part, don’t act instinctively.
Shouldn’t a man be judged on his actions? How can you judge discerned intentions? One can lie quite easily. It’s harder to cover up actions.
Case in point would be Kerry - most here are judging him on his actions. How many are judging him on his discerned intentions?
Anlir: You need to work someplace else. Sounds like a miserable place.
Lester: “your intentions cause your actions”
Not always. There have been times when my intentions were good but the execution betrayed my intentions.
Shouldn’t a man be judged on his actions?
Unfortunately that’s pretty much all we have to go by since we most often can’t tell what is in a man’s heart. Jesus did say, “As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.” I’m glad that he didn’t say “as a man does in his life, so is he.”
Judging discerned intentions is the best we can do. Sometimes we judge correctly, sometimes incorrectly. Sometimes fairly, sometimes not. It’s an inexact science.
It’s harder to cover up actions.
That certainly resonates with me. That’s why we should be more careful about what we say and do because it is all most people have in judging who we are. The Apostle Paul said to the Corinthians, “You are my epistles read among men.” For the unbelieving world, “reading” a Christian is the closest they’ll get to understanding or misunderstanding God. We could do better.
However, we should read the whole book and not just a sentence or paragraph. The testimony of true Christianity will bear the test of scrutiny.
In the case of John Kerry, it may be ok to say he lied, but may be inaccurate in the bigger picture of his life to call him a liar.
In the life of a Christian it may be proper to say they fall short, contradict their testimony, or even that they are lousy Christians, but it doesn’t contradict that the Gospel itself is truth.
NJLawyer,
In all the time I’ve been on this website you have done nothing but denigrate me. Then you try to witness to me about Jesus? You need a reality check big time!
I don’t know how I can make it any clearer: you have absolutely NO credibility with me. None. Nada. Zero.
Sadly, I doubt that will stop you. You seem to get great pleasure out of denigrating not just me, but the other non-Christians on here.
*****
Cameron,
That’s a mighty convenient way to get your fellow believers off the hook. I thought Christians were Christ’s ambassadors to the “lost”? Now you’re saying we should completely ignore them?
Anlir (#56) writes:
“It’s a mean streak that obliterates the central message of Christianity.”
From your comments it seems that, if you were a Christian, you would probably gravitate towards a Quaker type pacifism. That appears to be how you assess the Christian faith and expect it to be lived out by its adherents.
So, tell me Anlir, what do you think is the central message of Christianity?
Anlir,
No matter what I say, I doubt you’re looking for sincerity. Yes, we’re to reflect Jesus in what we do and say. None of us do that to the best of our ability, and some have a long way to go. But the focus when we talk to someone about Christ should be what Christ has done, rather than ourselves.
Michael,
You’re right - I would lean toward the Quaker type pacifism.
However, there are many fine Christians who are not of that persuasion. They persuade people by being kind, loving, and gracious. They don’t denigrate or demean people - they treat them with respect. Most mainline Christians would fit in here.
Then there are the new breed of “smash mouth” Christians who not only don’t turn the other cheek anymore, but “klock” you in the back of the head when you aren’t looking. I’m sure that my descriptor probably grates on people, but it’s the best and most accurate one I can come up with right now.
As for the central message of Christianity, briefly I think it’s God’s love for human beings. I’m sure no matter what definition I give it will be disputed though.
*****
Cameron,
You know what I appreciate? Christians who express humility and willingly admit their shortcomings. You run into them every now and then.
Anlir,
But if someone here expresses their shortcomings, we often hear, “See?!? You’re just like one of us! There’s no difference between us!”
I will never be the witness Christ desires me to be. But I pray I continue to proclaim the risen Christ as Lord and Savior.
Anlir (#66),
Putting your two thoughts together (pacifism and love), I don’t think that you have an accurate understanding of Christianity (or love either for that matter). So it is no wonder that you consistently mischaracterize the faith and constantly attack the straw men you build and label here.
Too bad, you are missing out on a lot.
McCain is quick to admit his shortcomings. So, if there were any black spots on his record, he would probably be the first tell us.
If you actually read through his own account of his time as a POW, he freely admits times when he failed. One time his agony was so intense he broke and told his captors some things. That bothered him tremendously and he resolved to be tougher next time around.
I’ve never seen a politician be so quick to admit his own faults. And this is not self-deprecating humor either, this is real sorrow for one’s own shortcomings. He explains that some of his past votes were mistakes. No one has called him a flip-flopper yet, perhaps because they accept his explanation that these were genuine mistakes.
While I disagree with some of McCain’s politics, he does talk quite a lot about reducing government waste and increasing domestic energy production. He might just be tough enough to do it. He has an ability to unite opposite sides in Congress.
It is a sure thing that Obama will address neither of these problems. He has already committed to raising taxes and there is no way he will fight liberals on domestic energy since he is the most liberal of them all.
I think McCain will win!
Anlir, I have never witnessed to you. Ever. If God wants you, he’ll find you. I don’t post to witness to you. It’s not on my radar.
I certainly wasn’t attempting to witness to you when I posted for the first time in this thread. This thread is about politics and the military records of candidates. Mr. Kerry wants it both ways. So do those liberals who support him. That includes you. I didn’t call him any names, but only asked why liberals don’t ask the relevant questions. It is when you are presented with questions you can’t answer, or more to the point don’t want to even consider, that you get “offended.” You respond by telling me I’m not being “nice.” I realize I may be used to “in your face jurisprudence” and that you’re not, but the facts are the facts.
You want Christians to speak and write the way you want them to speak and write, and if a Christian doesn’t do that the way you want — which means they have to hold back their opinion — you go on the attack. I realize you had problems growing up and that someone controlled you, but don’t think by using a version of that person’s tactics against me that you will make me feel bad for asking a blunt question about Kerry’s military record. You can try to control somebody else, but that won’t work with me. I will not be bullied by you.
As I recall, you wrote that you slam the doors a lot at work. Feel free to do so now.
I don’t care about McCain’s military records. That was a long time ago. I want to see his family’s tax returns. They are hiding something.
Godlumps,
Why should his wife have to release her tax returns? She isn’t running for office and they do not file jointly, from what I’ve read. He has released his-see link from the NY Times: http://tinyurl.com/3oo265
- 72 -
First of all there is no “family tax return” the McCain’s file separately.
There is no reason for anyone to see Cindy McCain’s tax returns, they have filed separately since they were married. She received a great inheritance, which is none of anyone’s business. Everyone knows that Mrs. McCain is a wealthy heiress. There is no law which says she is required to give out her tax returns.
Why do you need to know this information?
Transparency. The McCains are hiding something.
-74-
The McCain’s aren’t hiding anything, that’s just an excuse to find out how much money she has. Does it bother you that Cindy is very wealthy?
If the McCain’s had filed jointly, then it would be a different story.
Victoria,
I doubt you meant my post when you wrote your 73? Especially since I didn’t use the words “family tax return” and explained he had released his single-filed return, with a link….
Cameron, my mistake, it should have been #71 ….
Just trying to keep us all on the same page!
Looking at a tax return does not tell me how much money someone has. It tells me the sources of the McCain family’s current income. This information is relevant if he wants to run the country. They are hiding something.
Cameron- I didn’t use the term “family tax return” either, but that won’t stop someone like Victoria from pretending I did.
Godlumps,
You said “family’s tax returns” which does allow that you realize they file separately and that you want to see both. I’m just not sure how we have any right to see hers, even if she is “hiding something”. He’s declared his income, which is enough, imo. Where would you draw the line? His spouse, his grown children, his old college roommate?
Lumps - 79
OH MY, you must go back and read your post 71. Try and keep track of these things, because WE DO. It’s this “family tax return” thing you need to deal with in your post 71 below.
“Someone like Victoria” ? How about someone like you Lumps, who doesn’t remember what they posted, and then passes if off on another person - LOL you stuck your foot in that one.
71. by GodLumps 05.11.08 at 3:23 pm
You owe Cameron an apology and me
Vic- I know exactly what I wrote. I want to see his and his wife’s returns before I will support him. The McCains are hiding something. I want to know what.
LUMPS - 82
YOU WRITE post 79:
“Cameron- I didn’t use the term “family tax return” either, but that won’t stop someone like Victoria from pretending I did.”
YOU WRITE post 71:
“I don’t care about McCain’s military records. That was a long time ago. I want to see his family’s tax returns.”
YOU WRITE: post 82:
“Vic- I know exactly what I wrote. I want to see his and his wife’s returns before I will support him. The McCains are hiding something. I want to know what.”
I don’t think the McCain’s are going to release Cindy’s tax returns for YOUR VOTE
what a hoot!
Let’s move on now…….
Why shouldn’t they release their tax returns if they have nothing to hide?
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90HJ5SO1&show_article=1
From the article;
He files his return separately from his wife, an heiress to a Phoenix-based beer distributing company whose fortune is in the $100 million range.
Sen. McCain is routinely is ranked among the richest lawmakers in Congress, but he and his wife have kept their finances separate throughout their marriage. A prenuptial agreement left much of the family’s assets in Cindy McCain’s name.
That, and it’s really nobodies business lumpy.
Victoria,
Godlumps doesn’t owe me an apology. I understand how apostrophes work.
There is a difference between “family tax return” and “family’s tax returns”. The former is singular, and it implies one tax return for the family, which isn’t the case here, nor is it what was written. What Godlumps wrote is the latter, which recognizes multiple members of the family filing independently of one another, which is the case here.
I’d be sure before I demanded an apology of someone or on the behalf of someone else.
Godlumps,
Did you check the link I posted? His returns are available, and they’re all you’re legally entitled to. Now, you’re certainly entitled to vote for whomever you choose, but everybody running has undisclosed sources of income.