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Earlier this month, Barack Obama confirmed on “Meet the Press” that he is still a member of Trinity United Church of Christ, saying, “I think that the American people understand that when I joined Trinity United Church of Christ, I was committing not to Pastor [Jeremiah] Wright, I was committing to a church and I was committing to Christ. And it is a wonderful church.”
But closer inspection of the church’s weekly bulletin reveals more controversy originating from people other than Wright:
In a column in the April 15, 2007 bulletin, the Rev. Reginald Williams, the associate pastor for social justice at Trinity United, said he was not surprised by the racially charged remarks that talk-radio host Don Imus made about the Rutgers University women’s basketball team because “the major networks are run by right-winged conservatives who still see black people as subhuman and portray black people as such.”
In the April 22, 2007 bulletin, Williams called for shutting down the Pentagon’s WHINSEC School of the Americas, saying the school “in no uncertain terms trains Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation. In short, the United States Army trains students at this school of terrorism.”
According to a Trinity United staff member, the political articles are to inform congregants about world affairs, like newspaper commentaries where the opinions expressed are those of the writers, not necessarily the church. Even still, doesn’t such material reveal a troubling pattern and raise more questions about the type of church Obama has committed himself to?
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Soul searching
The fact that a Christian blog feels justified in attacking a church on such flimsy grounds,just because they produced a political rival is deeply troubling.
Even still, doesn’t such material reveal a troubling pattern and raise more questions about the type of church Obama has committed himself to?
No. But the breathless reporting of it reveals that people who hate Obama will scrape the bottom of any barrel in their efforts to discredit him.
Any effort to derail this historic presidency is racism, pure and simple. Any disagreement to that statement is racism, pure and simple. Any failure to fundraise, campaign, and vote for Obama is racism, pure and simple.
Every once in awhile I have a conversation with someone at church who will arc off on the most bizarre opinion. I have thought at times, “I can’t believe we go to the same church.” But I tend to lay the weird opinion at the feet of the holder thereof, not on the church.
Dave,
That was funny, pure and simple.
Of the two examples cited, the allegation about “the media” being run by right-wing conservatives who see blacks as subhuman is clearly incorrect. As all good WoW readers know, the media is run by godless commie Islamic atheists who see all religious believers as idiots.
However, the statement about the School of the Americas is true. And I have been perplexed a few times in the course of this by people excitedly reporting, “Obama’s pastor said the sky is blue! How will the candidate recover from this??” (The preceding was ironic hyperbole, I say for the sake of those who don’t get irony.)
I believe that Dave undertands that only the left is totalitarian, despotic, descriminatory and racist today. All other thought, or comment, is not allowed - period. Not allowed for any reason including personal freedom and liberty - which is no longer for all but only for a select few on the left. Sad really.
Dave deserves to be at the front of the class today.
This is not about race or politics. It is about a church that worships the same God that you worship. That has the same goal as expanding Christ ministry that this blog has, hence this rabid hounding of the trinity congregation is not only hurting christ ministry but also making this ‘Christian’ blog look more like a republican blog (both of which aren’t mutually interchangeable, by the way.)
It is about a church that worships the same God that you worship.
So far, there has been no evidence to support this.
Fusion,
The problem with your statement @ #8 is that I have not yet found two people on this blog that think exactly alike. So your (singular)use of you (plural) makes you come off as repugnant as you suggest we (plural) are. If you disagree with Kristin address her.
That being said, Stubob,
So far, there has been no evidence to support that Trinity worships a different God than my church. Is their God different than yours? Not their opinions, their God.
#9 “So far, there has been no evidence to support this.”
Stubob this declaration was taken from their website
“We believe in you, O God, Eternal Spirit, God of our Savior Jesus Christ and our God, and to your deeds we testify: You call the worlds into being, create persons in your own image,and set before each one the ways of life and death…”
link: http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
You really shouldn’t be so prejudiced. They may worship christ differently from the way you do, but aren’t you all supposed to be different parts of the same body of christ. It is best to leave this congregation to go about the good works of christ in peace instead of being constantly attacked by their fellow christians.
Note: being prejudiced doesn’t mean you’re racist.
Their pastor would have been ejected from my church for heresy. I believe they worship of Black God of their own imagining. I could be wrong. My only point is that Fusion’s statement that they “worship the same God” is not self-evidently true.
#12.
The name of the Church is Trinity United Church of Christ. If they want to worship a “black God of their own imagining” that is their prerogative. The same way no one accused artists of heresy when they decide to give Jesus blue eyes and many churches display such representations of Jesus.
Fusion: Claims that the ‘church’ of Obama (and Obama) worships the same God I do???
Not quite.
A ‘Church’ (and a ‘candidate’) that supports/likes the idea of ripping a full term child from the mothers womb, delivering her externally, and butchering her by impalation does not worship the same ‘God’ I do.
A ‘Church’ (and a ‘candidate’) that wants God to da-n America does not worship the same ‘God’ I do.
A ‘Church’ (and a candidate’) that openly and proudly supports haters and bigots and cop-killers does not worship the same ‘God’ I do.
Maybe you can claim so, don’t claim it for me.
#10
my sentence was “It is about a church that worships the same God that you worship.”
Adios, When I used ‘you’, I was referring primarly to the majority of us on this blog that worship Jesus as Lord and savior, hopefully Kristin included. Hence, i don’t see how accusing the majority of people writing on a christian blog of being christians is offensive.
#14 Drill,
I am glad to see that you can differentiate between a church and a politician. But your ability to differentiate is useless if you keep lumping the church and the candidate together. It is impossible for you to determine that every last member of Trinity’s congregation is pro choice or even supports Obama’s candidacy. I once left a church because I had a difference of opinion with the Pastor and sometimes I still regret that decision because there were very many things about that church and it’s congregation that I liked and miss. If I could relive that moment, I would decide to stay.
Hence, if you want to attack Obama’s stance on certain public issues, by all means be my guest but leave your fellow believers and their church to serve the Lord in peace.
Why does it matter how his Pastor feel personally? They both believe in God! This is just another frivolous attack. What the critics want to say is exactly what Hillary said, and that is basicly he is black and no educated white person will vote for him! So I wish all of this sugar coating and irrelevance to his pastor feelings stop. America four fathers are turning in their graves. This is the day all minorities have waited for, Equality. White America is about to get the long needed and oh so deserving shade it has earned. This country is in shambles behind the Bush Administration and McCain only wants to dig our grave even deeper!! Hillary is a liar and she appears weak to most women (the women who aren.t polled). She is not trust worthy and under her husband admin. the U.S. incarcirated more Blacks than any other President. So why not a new and fresh start? Why not Obama? He bleeds red, boo-boo brown and spend fgreen money like the rest of us. This country was built from OUR ancestors back breaking labor, with their blood shed, women raped and children killed. The next President of the United States: BARACK OBAMA!!!
#2 “But the breathless reporting of it reveals that people who hate Obama will scrape the bottom of any barrel in their efforts to discredit him.”
#17 “Why does it matter how his Pastor feels personally?”
View it this way and see if this is any clearer.
A white man is running for president and he is part of a racist organization who damns the country he wants to lead.
So now, please explain why this is off limits for discussion or why it is just someone’s opinion or part of some vast right wing conspiracy.
Failure to have Obama’s image tatooed on your back is racism, pure and simple.
demonizing a group of people just because they are different from you if based on their racial heritage is racism, if for other reasons it is still bigotry. Both should have no place in christian living. We shouldn’t be fighting fire with fire.
#20 So then, is it racist to call a racist a racist?
#21.
Of course you can call a racist a racist; actually there is a good probability that Rev. Wright is racist. But, unless you see Obama or the Trinity church as a whole openly antagonizing Caucasians (which he doesn’t do) it is best to stop these unnecessary accusations and belittling the problem of racism, and focus on the real issues involved.
#21
also if you look it up, you would probably find that trinity has white members in its congregation.
#22 Fusion,
I postulate that this reverend, the old one; Rev Wright, many who attend this church and this church itself are all Racist and anti American - just like the left wing of their socialist political party. They also do not worship the same God as I. Thanks for allowing me these comments.
The suggestion in the April 22, 2007 Trinity bulliten that the US Army are terrorist trainers is a sadistic lie. Such comments prey on the ignorant to make them hate America.
Dave [#3}, just because the BO candidacy would be “historic” does that make everyone who examines THE MAN or HIS BELIEFS automatically A RACIST?
If another HATEMONGER– say the 1st sitting KKK head — ran for president and hence was a “historic” candidacy, would it also be racist to examine his character?
What if we found out that John McCain (another “historic” candidate since he would be the oldest candidate) had been attending a white supremacist church for 20 years and expressed his intent to continue to do so? Would you be urging such restraint?
If BO is truly such a strong advocate of enhancing understanding between the races and reducing racial tension, where was he when protests and unrest in NYC and Chicago occurred after the Sean Bell decision? [BTW, based upon the info I have at this time, I also would disagree with the decision.]
#24
You are free to hold such an opinion, as along you don’t feel others should be morally obligated to feel the same way
Fusion: So I ASSUME that you also believe that the Phelps ‘Church’ also is okay - i.e. that is worships the same God as you, and therefore gets the same pass as you are giving Obama’s ‘church’?
If you do, you are wrong there, too.
Drill at #14: A ‘Church’ (and a ‘candidate’) that wants God to da-n America does not worship the same ‘God’ I do.
Ever read the book of Jeremiah? Jeremiah Wright comes by his name honestly.
Some of the prophets of Israel were not the least bit hesitatnt to call for or warn of God’s wrath and judgment on Israel for her sins. How is Rev. Wright not that same kind of prophetic voice?
Drill #28:
Rev. Phelps honestly believes that he is worshipping Jesus Christ and God, perhaps even more so than most of us. He is justified in preaching his brand of theology (which by the way is different from Trinity, Baptist vs. UCC are different denominations) and crosses the line by causing distress to unwilling participants in public venues, (something you can’t accuse Trinity of doing). But that isn’t what this is about Phelp’s Church sought public attention and they got it. Trinity didn’t, and since the church (not its former pastor) hasn’t attacked you, it is only decent to pay them the same courtesy by leaving them alone, even if you disagree with their doctrine.
Steveg: Not quite. Jeremiah was calling Israel to the knowledge of its wickedness, back to righteousness - but never did Jeremiah ask God to ‘damn’ Israel.
Obama’s church, on the other hand, preaches a message of hatred and bigotry and asks God to damn America so that her enemies (like Islam and criminals who like to kill cops) may triumph.
You use the word ‘honestly’ a lot. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Fusion #22
Wright is not the only racist at Trinity. You go watch the videos. While he is spouting his nonsense, there are a whole lot of people in the congergation nodding in agreement, wavin’ their arms, and Amenin’ him. Now in my church, that’s how you let the Pastor know you agree. I’m sure that’s true in most churchs. So no, he ain’t the only racist there.
Fusion #23
Yeah, white people. Guilty feelin’ white liberals, but white, so I guess you’re right.
And folks, the social gospel, is not THE gospel.
#22 Fusion, “Unless you see Obama or the Trinity church as a whole openly antagonizing Caucasians (which he doesn’t do) it is best to stop these unnecessary accusations.”
From ‘Dreams From My Father’:
“I ceased to advertise my mother’s race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.”
“I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother’s race.”
“The emotion between the races could never be pure … The other race (white) would always remain just that: menacing, alien and apart.”
“It was into my father’s image, the black man, the son of Africa, that I’d packed all the attributes I sought in myself.”
“That hate hadn’t gone away, blaming white people,- some cruel, some ignorant, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives.”
Adios: “But I tend to lay the weird opinion at the feet of the holder thereof, not on the church.”
But what if the holder is one of the pastor’s of the church. And what if a racist theology is the stated doctrinal position of the church?
Xion at #33: You quote passages from one of Obama’s books where he describes, in the past tense, what he felt as a child or a teenager.
So what?
What does he believe NOW? What experiences did he have after “the age of 12 or 13″ and how did they serve to change his thinking?
I would not want to be held to feelings I had when I was 13 as if now, in my mid-40s, I must feel the same way. Would you?
Quoting snippets of his book out of context is a deceptive low blow. Are you exempt from that “Thou shalt not bear false witness” commandment? Because this is pretty darn close to meeting the definition, UNLESS you have reason to think he still feels that way.
Of course, if you had evidence that he still felt that way, you wouldn’t have to quote him writing about how he felt 30-35 years ago, hmm?
#32 tHE REAL aj,
Obama better hope and pray he is not on video, dancing in the aisles, nodding in agreement to or handing out candy while others are acting racist and or anti American in church.
Otherwise, he better hope and pray that God will change the face on the film to spare him.
I’m guessing that this film will not be too difficult to come with either - if Obama actually ever went to church as often as he claims for 20 years.
#35 SteveG - OK, but you’ve heard them already.
Obama recently:
[My grandmother] “she is a typical white person who, uh, you know, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know there’s a reaction that’s been been bred into, uh, our experiences that don’t go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way and that’s just the nature of race in our society.”
“You go into some of these small (white) towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them,… And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”
While Obama is polished and rarely ever slips up, occasionally what he really thinks leaks out. He views whites as bitter xenophobes who have nothing left but guns and religion because Washington their true Savior failed them.
PLUS HE STILL BELONGS TO A CLEARLY RACIST ORGANIZATION! (Yes, I’m shouting!)
What more do you need? That covers his past and his present. I think if he signed a written statement saying “kill the white people!”, you would still defend him.
Fusion,
Re: #8
You don’t know this site very well. This site is above all else, a Republican blogsite. The Christianity is second fiddle.
Once you understand that fact, it then becomes easier to understand why anything goes in the name of politics on here (and I mean anything), including attacking other churches and denigrating other people’s faith.
Worldmag is going to pound this matter into the ground from now until November because above all else, their “Precious” (aka: a Republican) must remain in the White House. Karl Rove is “God” around here, not Jesus.
I must warn you - this site is not for the faint of heart. It’s primary purpose is to “swiftboat” whomever is the Democratic nominee. If Christ himself were the Democratic nominee, he’d be “swiftboated” on here.
It’s why many of us say that conservative Christians have lost their moral compass. Heck, they didn’t just lose it, they took a baseball bat to it and smashed it to pieces.
Strong words, Anlir. Not particularly insightful, but strong. You used to be much less caustic, more thoughtful. Too bad, really.
Unfortunately Stubob, “strong” seems to be the only language that has a credence on here. It seems that if you want to participate you’ve got to be willing to brawl. I’ve tried being thoughtful and I’ve received nothing but grief for it. It really is too bad.
Anlir,
Your Admonition is understood. As it would then be impossible for us to reason together, if every other view point except conservative republican isn’t welcome here.
Anlir #38 I must warn you - this site is not for the faint of heart. It’s primary purpose is to “swiftboat” whomever is the Democratic nominee. If Christ himself were the Democratic nominee, he’d be “swiftboated” on here.
Let’s see, (acc. to wiki) “Swiftboating is American political jargon that is used (primarily) as a strong pejorative description of some kind of attack that the speaker considers unfair or untrue—for example, an ad hominem attack or a smear campaign.”
The Veterans for Truth define the term differently, i.e. “exposing the lies, deceit and fraud of self-glorifying public officials or candidates for office who exaggerate their military service by lying about their feats of heroism and combat wounds.”
I think “swiftboating” is simply another term like “Nazi” which liberals call anyone who disagrees with them.
Xion at #37:
Neither of those statements are in any way racist.
When he said that about his grandmother, I thought about my own grandmother and realized, he’s right. She was a loving, openhearted, unracist person, but she called black people ‘nigras’ and was always a little wary until she got acquainted with them because that was how she was brought up.
So when Obama made the point that people of an older generation have a very different ingrained set of ideas about race relations than the younger generation does, I was glad to hear somebody finally telling the truth about race in this country.
Same with the “bitter” comment. It’s not flattering, but it’s true, and please do note that he’s not saying “white people are bad,” he’s saying that people who have been struggling and seen one politician after another make big promises of “change” and not deliver, it’s understandable that they choose to hold to what they trust and count on rather than believing him when he sounds like the other promise-breakers. (Remember he said that in response to a question about why he was having trouble gaining much support in that demographic in Pennsylvania.)
You see what you want to see, but it just isn’t really there.
#41 Rather than make a point, Anlir’s debating style is to call everyone mean. Conservatives who have an opinion are by definition mean.
On the contrary Fusion, you will find many sympathizers with liberal positions here.
For example, I support many liberal goals on the environment, race, energy, world peace, opportunity for all, individual freedom, etc.
Liberals unfortunately oppose themselves and achieve quite the opposite of their goals. We conservatives are here to help.
- Liberals fight racism by institutionalizing it (Affirmative Action).
- Liberals fight energy independence by hindering domestic energy production.
- Liberals fight for better education by killing competition.
- Liberals fight for religious freedom through censorship.
Obama has admitted that he has always judged people based on the color of their skin. His whole life and relationships are defined by skin color. If he gets into office he will determined who to help based on their skin color. This is not only against the teachings of MLK Jr. it is harmful to America.
If you are a liberal, then we love you. We are here to help.
#43 - If that is true, then why does he only single out white people as the bitter insensitive ones? He is classifying all white people as the same. That is the definition of prejudice. He prejudges people based on the color of their skin.
Who wants a president who can only see skin deep?
Anlir has often “slipped up,” just as BO has. Remember, she threatened to call the cops on my daughter once last fall.
She can pretend to be moderate and balanced at times, but her true self eventually comes out.
This is very similar to Barack. He might come across as polished most of the time, but beware the true self he is hiding from the voters.
Xion:
The fact that you vigorously defend a group that called a man who willingly served his country in war a “traitor” only proves my point that conservative Christians will do and say anything for their beloved Republican Party.
*****
I love it when Outkast pops in to make a personal attack on me. It would be disappointing if he didn’t. He’s such a good Christian.
It wasn’t a personal attack, my dear Anlir, as much as you wish it were. It’s a simple truth (that anyone can check by looking through the archives) that you threatened to use to government to force your personal opinion on my family.
Just like Obama . . .
Check . . . mate.
Outkast - 46
YOU WRITE:…. “Anlir has often “slipped up,” just as BO has. Remember, she threatened to call the cops on my daughter once last fall.”
I remember that, it was over a wonderful Christmas program, which used the words “MERRY CHRISTMAS” -
I would suggest that Paul said something about not eating meat offered to idols not because it bothered him but because other weaker fellow believers were caused to stumble.
In my church, were are subtley taught not to bring politics to church, especially if we teach.
Rev. Reginald Williams doesn’t follow this unwritten dictum.
Outkast - 48
I have checked out the thread and posts, you are right.
The thread name in question is “Reason and the Season” dated December 8, 2007
Post 252 , 258 by Anlir ——- are the posts in question
Anlir - 47
YOU WRITE:……..
“I love it when Outkast pops in to make a personal attack on me. It would be disappointing if he didn’t. He’s such a good Christian.”
Anlir, ———- looks like you attacked the wrong person, do you have a mirror handy?
#47 Anlir, You keep trying to change the subject. If you reread what I said, I didn’t defend anyone. I merely pointed out that your definition of ’swiftboating’ is not universal.
I am hoping that someday you will allow people to disagree with you without calling them mean or mindless ideologues. Consider for a moment that it might just be possible for other people to have legitimate opinions. Think about it. Peace!
Xion,
Folks like Outkast and Victoria have made (and continue to make) repeated personal attacks on me all the while claiming to have the love of Christ in their hearts. It’s pure hypocrisy.
OK, I think it’s time for a big group hug. We love you Anlir!
Anlir, while Outkast and Victoria have sometimes crossed the line, in my opinion, many times they are merely reacting to your insults and attacks. I hate to rehash all that, but I cannot let your make the statement in #54 without a rebuttal.
You come to a Christian website and then act shocked and indignant to see Christian views espoused. Your idea of being insulted is simply to hear things you disagree with. Get a grip. This is not a neutral or objective blog. It’s an evangelical, conservative blog, and yes, many of us are Republicans or Libertarians. Deal with it.
For awhile you were among the people who wanted to debate peacefully. You even successfully encouraged others–on both sides here– to do the same. What happened?
I’ve watched you get more and more bitter and mean in the things you write. In fact, in the last few days you have done a lot of drive-by’s, which was not typical of you before. I think we’ve all heard enough of how we are more devoted to the Republican Party than to the Christian faith. Come up with something new, okay?
Klye A.,
I tried being nice and I’ve been personally attacked for it time and time again by conservative Christians on here. I would love to debate peacefully, but I get slapped for it every time. So what am I supposed to do?
You completely and totally misunderstand the point of my numerous comments. I’m objecting not to Republican/conservative Christians views or ideas, but to the politics of personal destruction that are such a big part of this site. I’m objecting to the hypocrisy of the conservative Christians on here who claim to have the love of Christ, yet use denigrating and insulting language against others. I’m objecting to the attitude that says “I’m a Christian. Therefore everything I say is right and everything you say is wrong”. I’m objecting to the self-righteous, judgmental, know-it-all attitude that so many conservative Christians have.
You’d have a point if you had even one time jumped on those on your side for their intemperate language. No matter what someone on your side says, you either defend them or sit there in silence and let them get away with it.
Anlir,
Many of us have jumped on those on “our side” for intemperate language. I have addressed outkast a time or two, for instance. And yes, Christians shouldn’t do that–agreed. Still, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder in recent interactions with us and, yes, to expect us not to speak from a Christian point of view–not a realistic expectation to have for Christians on a Christian blog. I’d say the “politics of personal destruction” on here is a pretty minimal part of things (with one or two notorious repeat offenders), and that lately you’re as likely to be in that group as not.
And yes, Christians should be held to a higher standard, no question there, but we can’t be expected never to say anything with which you disagree, even disagree strongly.
Cheryl D.,
Where would you get the idea that I’m not expecting people to speak from a Christian point of view? I’m going after the things that have historically been antithetical to Christianity: denigrating people, using hateful language, being mean spirited, haughty, judgmental, self-rightousness, and so forth.
From my perspective, too many conservative Christians have lost their moral compass. They can’t even see that the words coming out of their mouth (ok, keyboard) completely belies their professed claim to have the love of Christ in their heart. Those of us who are not Christians look at them and think “You’re no different than the rest of us. Your Christianity hasn’t changed you at all (at least not for the better anyway)”.
Look, I know I’m a jerk sometimes. But I don’t claim to be both a Christian and a jerk.
Fusion wrote way up above: “This is not about race or politics. It is about a church that worships the same God that you worship.”
I didn’t grow up in a church that made ANY mention of politics, and I don’t attend one that does that now. So, that’s two churches that I know of that are very, very different from Obama’s church which is very political.
Christ wasn’t involved in politics, so he’d never be a Democratic nominee OR a Republican nominee OR an Independent. Anyone who thinks that hasn’t read the New Testament. There are those who would prefer that Christians have no political opinion at all. That’s not only unAmerican, it’s elitist superiority.
CBN NEWS
Obama and the Cross
May 14, 2008
I have been telling Brody File readers for months that if Barack Obama becomes the Democratic nominee he will make a pitch to win over independent/moderate Evangelicals. Well, we now have evidence.
In Kentucky, he is making a direct appeal to Evangelicals with flyers that mention his conversion experience and they highlight a big old cross. Remember Mike Huckabee’s supposed subliminal cross in his Christmas campaign ad? Well, Obama campaign ditches the subliminal and goes for the in your face cross. Look at the flyer
The Obama campaign has consistently believed that their candidate can compete for the “religious vote”. A lot has been made about how Obama hasn’t done as well with Catholics compared to Clinton. But let’s remember one thing: Obama has a story to tell about how Jesus came into his life. You can bet we will be hearing more details about it on the stump in the fall. (if Obama is the nominee)
Regarding Pastor Wright:
2 Timothy 2:3-4
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.