More Active Posts
Front Page
Whirled Views 5.17
 |
 52 Comments |
Happy Saturday!
Today’s quote is from a children’s author: “I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living.”
 |
Topic: WorldMagBlog |  |
Email a friend |
 |
Keywords: |  |
RSS 2.0 |
 |
Both comments and pings are currently closed. |  |
Share this: |
Soul searching
Looks like many of the “pregnant FLDS minors” the state of Texas kidnapped from the YFZ Ranch may actually turn out to be adult women:
Read the rest here …
Also, it seems that many of the social workers involved in the YFZ case are experiencing serious mental anguish over what the state of Texas is doing to the 464 FLDS kids and their families:
Read the piece here …
And finally, there’s this:
Read the rest here …
Kristin, my vote goes to Remy Charlip.
Frank provides us with “evidence.” Here’s the line that stands out for me: “… the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six.
Five or six is five or six too many.
I have no doubt that as the facts come out we may see a different picture than what was originally thought. We also have to wait to find out if those “adult women” were adult women when they were first “married” and when they first gave birth. Moreover, just because these women see themselves as having choices doesn’t mean they do. I reserve judgment until all the evidence is in.
Dr.Seuss! I suspected it, but confirmed it with Google.
That quote could have come from my incredibly creative/inventive daughter!
Theodor Seuss Geisel is his real name.
Congratulations, EYG. You’re the Saturday winner of a hot and frothy digital cappuccino:
~~0)
Do you want a little digital cinnamon to sprinkle on top?
NJLawyer (5): ” … the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six.”
Five or six is five or six too many.
Frank: Keep reading, NJL: “That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch — substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent.”
Your reply sounds eerily similar to the heretofore liberal mantra, “[Fill in the blank] may be an extreme measure, but if it saves even one life, it’s worth it.”
NJLawyer (5): I have no doubt that as the facts come out we may see a different picture than what was originally thought. … I reserve judgment until all the evidence is in.
Frank: Woulda been nice if the FLDS families were given the same benefit of the doubt. They have yet to face their accuser. Indeed, the accuser who brought this entire thing about was not the “captive, underage, FLDS teen bride” she presented herself to be, but a false reporter — an adult woman who placed the damning telephone call for help from two states away, who also has a prior record of filing false reports to the police.
And based upon such flimsey evidence and accusation, 400+ children are rent from their families and religious community?
NJL, I sincerely hope you’re never on the receiving end of this kind of a false and malicious report that throws your family’s life into upheaval for years to come. Why are you so willing to see other Americans subjected to it?
Also, let me ask you, as a lawyer and a Christian, and to the best of your knowledge of this case: How has this case met either the legal or the biblical requirements of legal evidence and due process? From where I sit, it seems to be just shot through with gaping holes.
If there were five or six csaes of abuse, then those cases should have been investigated.
The children probably don’t even understand what is happening to them. The trauma will probably stay with them for the rest of their lives.
I think Frank’s question in #9 needs an answer. What about the evidence and the due process?
Ted Kennedy just had a stroke. Pray for his full recovery.
Frank, the worst that has happened to me where the law is concerned is that overzealous cops/parking officers gave me two tickets when I had my sticker on my car and they failed to look, both times dismissed. I am well aware of cops and prosecutors who have overstepped their bounds, I’ve literally seen it, but I’ve also seen judges deal with it, and I have every confidence that the judge here is acting in good faith, certainly in the absence of hearing anything against her abilities as a judge. I will defer to her. She has a tough job with something like 400+ lawyers to deal with, complex legal issues for EACH person involved, but so far, she hasn’t violated due process. I understand your concerns, but as a female who kinda sorta understands rape in a different way than you probably do, I’m in favor of putting an end to the abuse and putting the rapists in the cell(s) next to Warren Jeffs. It’s an unusual case in that it involves so many children. We don’t see that everyday.
Complex litigation takes time. I understand that there is a hearing coming up. Perhaps you can tell me how the judge and the lawyers in this case were supposed to prepare for something like that over night. How would they take depositions or write briefs over night? Do you have any idea what’s involved here as a practical matter? Do you think DNA tests to determine parentage are done at the snap of the fingers?
I do have sympathy for the little kids, and I hope they are resilient enough. But so far, as I recall from the news, that young man who testified about his own experiences in the compound before being ejected has provided sufficient supporting evidence of wrongdoing to warrant keeping custody of the children with the state. He was not the only person who testified. You’ve all heard stories in the news regarding the rapes from women who have left the compound, as well as those of other boys who have been ejected, though that is not evidence in the court record (but may be in the future). They’ve had their initial hearing, and what the judge heard made her decide that there’s probable cause. This has to be sorted out methodically to meet due process concerns and that takes time when this many people are involved. That’s the biggest problem here.
But what I’m gleaning from Frank’s posts is that despite the evidence they do have, he would prefer that the rapes continue while it all gets sorted out. I’m sure those girls appreciate that attitude. The “accuser” has not been found. Is that because she doesn’t exist or is that because she’s dead? Moreover, I doubt the judge who signed the initial warrant relied on that one telephone call alone. Evidently, Frank is willing to take more chances with the other kids than I am.
—-
It is sad about Teddy Kennedy, but he’s at that age and there is a family history of stroke. It’s not a happy thing to have to deal with as the patient or the family. Llam’s right. Pray for him.
Sen. Ted Kennedy Hospitalized After Suffering 2 Seizures
Saturday, May 17, 2008
Sen. Ted Kennedy has been hospitalized in Boston after apparently suffering two seizures Saturday morning.
The Massachusetts senator’s current condition is not known, but he does not appear to have had a stroke as was initially suspected.
One Democratic source told FOX News Kennedy suffered one seizure in the morning, and then another en route to Massachuetts General Hospital, where he is being evaluated.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356497,00.html
I just survived the kid’s birthday party number five. This one was touch and go.
I just finished reading Safely Home, by Randy Alcorn. VS recommended it, and it
was a good read. Alcorn uses the novel as a vehicle to describe the conditions faced by the unregistered Christian Church in China, much as Solzhenitsyn did in One day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich to describe gulag conditions in Russia. He describes the persecution and the conditions in which they meet. By inference we can understand what happens in many other places in the world. He also explains why they are unregistered.
The book isn’t a mystery, we know from the title and fine picture on the facing page, what the outcome is before we start.
Alcorn begins with a view of Heaven, where Li Quan’s ancestors, who were previously martyred, are watching the events unfold on earth, and predicts two destinies unfolding. There is some speculation, especially at the end, of the happenings in heaven. As I’ve said about other books with descriptions of goings-on in heaven. “I know it isn’t that way, but I don’t know what it is either, so his speculation is as good as mine.” So I don’t mind these kinds of fanciful views of heaven.
An American executive, Ben Fielding was instrumental in his Chinese student roommate at Harvard, Li Quan, finding Christ. Li Quan returns to China to teach, but isn’t permitted to teach because of his faith. A few years pass, Fielding succeeds in business, but his family and spiritual life crashes; he and Li Quan lose contact. But, Fielding then, for business reasons, spends a few weeks with Li Quan’s family. He inadvertently becomes involved in the happenings of the Chinese church.
At 400 pages, the book is somewhat longer than it needs to be, but it is well worth the time. It gives a good insight into a world we hear about, sometimes pray about, but really know little about. It’s interesting and enlightening.
Kyle A:
Will Grigg, a Christian (and former Mormon) writer, is blogging on the FLDS/YFZ Ranch incident here:
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/search/label/FLDS%20Church
Newest posts on top, oldest at the bottom.
Grigg has an acid keyboard, documents his blog posts with numerous links — and carries no brief whatsoever for LDS/FLDS doctrine. But he absolutely deplores the unjust treatment of FLDS — or anybody else — at the hands of another cult that is far more dangerous: the Cult of Caesar (a.k.a., the Almighty State).
Check him out.
I’m sorry to hear about Ted Kennedy. I will pray for him and hope he has a good recovery. On one hand, I would like to see him retire, but I’m not confident that the voters in Mass. would do any better.
And may God save Sen. Kennedy’s soul.
NJLawyer (12): … I have every confidence that the judge here is acting in good faith, certainly in the absence of hearing anything against her abilities as a judge.
Frank: Why does this judge see fit to deny the FLDS women and children — who are under arrest (a helluva way to treat possible “rape victims,” you have to admit) the right to pray together unsupervised?
And why do the FLDS prsioners’ lawyers need to seek restraining orders to keep nursing children from being removed from their mothers?
I know I’m asking you to engage in conjecture here, but how do you surmise the judge is serving the “interests of the State” in these matters?
Bottom line, some folk would rather see a 14 year-old girl raped by a 40 year old man to protect their precious libertarian political philosophy. Even one intervention by the authorities (the evil “state”) is one too many for them.
I would imagine they don’t let the women and children pray together unsupervised to prevent anyone threatening anyone else and/or corroborating testimony. I don’t really think it is unusual in dealing with possible abuse, especially since no one knows who is abusing who in some instances. I am certainly not an expert, but that would seem logical to me. I have no idea why the nursing children would be removed from their mothers.
Sorry–who is abusing whom.
KI,
I’m fairly sure nursing children were not removed from their mothers. I heard early on that infants weren’t.
Cheryl D,
I’d recommend you read some of Will Grigg’s posts on the matter. The link is at (16) above.
Indeed, the State of Texas is reported to have taken a baby that was born to its mother while she was in captivity … um, in prison … er, in “protective custody.” Interestingly enough, the mother is an FLDS woman who is both monogamous, and an adult, 22 years of age. (See my next post below …)
Anlir (20): Bottom line, some folk would rather see a 14 year-old girl raped by a 40 year old man to protect their precious libertarian political philosophy. Even one intervention by the authorities (the evil “state”) is one too many for them.
Frank: Don’t spout off about about “libertarian political philosophy.” You know nothing — no, less than nothing about libertarianism. Exhibit A: You so easily confuse libertarianism with anarchy.
One of libertarianisms fundamental tenets is the prinicple of non-agression. Another is that government exists to protect the weak against the depradations of the strong.
So I think I can safely speak for most libertarians when I say that I have absolutely no problem charging and trying your 40-year-old man for raping your 14-year-old girl. If he forced her to have sex with her against her will, it’s forcible rape. If he had consensual sex with her, it’s statutory rape. And if her parents gave her to him in marriage but the laws of the state don’t allow them to do that, then prosecute him and the parents for violation of the state’s marriage laws.
Regardless, arrest your suspect(s), charge and try them in a court of law according to due process.
But don’t round up every woman and child of a closed religious community, and then separate the children from the mothers, in the name of protecting an unknown number of “victims” of an unknown number of crimes against them, based on the word of a mysterious anonymous accuser. (Incidentally, Anlir, how comfortable are you with the idea that an anonymous accuser can bring this kind of upheaval upon a closed/separatist religious sect?)
Why is it that we have yet to hear of the first suspect in one of these heinous crimes being arrested, arraigned, indicted, etc.?
No, Anlir. The real bottom line is that some folk would prefer to see 40-year-old statutory rapists convicted by due process and in a fair trial, rather than to see the mothers and children of an entire community rounded up and imprisoned — “for their own good,” naturally — apart from due process.
Anlir,
You’ll recall that habeas corpus has been all but eliminated — in the name of the War on Terror — by the Bush administration, right? You and I have both complained loud and long about this atrocity.
Well, read on …
So don’t attribute false motives and rationales to me, Anlir. If you wish to discuss facts — or even mere news reports — in this case, by all means, please do cite or link to some of them.
But don’t try to justify the State’s depradations against the FLDS based on your scenario of a 40-year-old man raping a 14-year-old girl, because it simply doesn’t fly.
At least, not the way the State of Texas is pulling it off.
Isn’t it the law that if one child is suspected of being abused you have to take all the children in the household? This just happened to be a really big household.
I’m with Frank here.
The orginal complaint turned out to be false — what grounds do the CPS and the police have for further investigations. If there are individual instances of child brides etc., they have to be dealt with individually. Until the state can present its case sufficiently, they need to stay out.
the FLDS community in Bountiful, British Columbia has longed been left alone for essentially that reason; the state cannot interfere unless harm is demonstrated and the state has the means to rectify and prevent harm.
Our (US and Can) legal system is based on individual acts, rights and responsibilities. To hold the group accountable for the illegal behaviour of one or two is indefensible. This is especially true in Canada and Bountiful since our law prevents the prosecution of an individual crime on the entire group committing a joint act. (ie murder in the course of a bank robber, only the trigger man can be prosecuted not the getaway driver) Find the rapists, charge them, and leave the rest alone to practice their religion. If the state can’t prove a crime, leave.
KBells,
Let’s see how that works.
God has ordained three primary spheres of government, in (I think) the following order:
- The family/household (which rules with the rod)
- The civil magistrate/state (which rules with the sword)
- The church/covenant community (which, in the NT era, rules with the keys, primarily via the communion table)
Seems that, according to your statement, you equate the household and the church (which, in this case, also equals the neighborhood/local community).
And you’re happy to give the state the authority to lump them all together because they are wierd and are suspected of engaging in marital/family practices that are outside societal norms?
Do you have any problem whatsoever with the state calling adult, monogamous FLDS women “minors” for the sake of bolstering their authority and their case against the FLDS?
Do you really think that it’s okay for the state to call a church (I use the term loosely here) a “household” when it suits them? To call an adult married woman a “disputed minor”?
I’m the first to admit that this is a comliccated matter. I just don’t think you round up all the women and children of a community — then separate the women from the children — and hold them all against their will “for their own good” because some of them just might be crime victims. (All the while, allowing the suspected perpetrators to remain at large, no less.)
Frank, you ARE asking me to engage in conjecture. I don’t know the answers to your questions about Texas law sitting in NJ, and newspaper articles aren’t evidence. I won’t be as blunt as Anlir was in his post to you at 20, but I’m kinda sorta leaning his way. I doubt that this was started with one anonymous phone call because I doubt any judge would issue a warrant based on that alone.
You know I don’t like big government, and if all the FLDS was doing out there was living a life where women wear prairie clothes and old-fashioned hairdos, I’d be with you. But that’s not what they’re doing! And there is more than rape going on there. The boys are being abused, ejected, and some are trained to rape. We’ve got to get to the bottom of this, and with this large number of people, that’s an enormous task for the court. You must know that law enforcement and the prosecutor’s office isn’t going to try this in the media and that they can’t reveal everything they know publicly until trial. That would taint the jury pool.
With a problem like this, lots of “unhappy” things will happen like nursing mothers separated from their children. There’s usually a lot more going on than what’s printed in a news article. I think we all have to wait this one out and let the judge do her job step by step. I want her to do that, because I don’t want any rapists getting off on a technicality.
HRW — do not confuse British Columbian and/or Canadian law with Texas and/or American law. They are not the same thing. The rules of evidence are different, the statutes are different. (I think you need to review felony murder law, too.)
Just so you know, the grounds for further investigation by the CPS is those pregnant teenagers.
The entire group is NOT being charged here, and both you and Frank know it.
Hello all. I just got back from my dad’s. He hasn’t eaten in several days and his blood sugar is up around 160. My stepmother had gone out of town for special olympics. She had called him and he wasn’t making sense on the phone. She called me and I went to check. We had discussed whether or not to take him to the ER. He wouldn’t go. She will be back at her house in about 2 hours and then she is coming up to check on him. My ex-husband called and I was trying to tell him about it and he said I was talking over him and he was tired of it and was going to hang up. I really could use some encouragement. I just don’t know how much more I can take. Thanks.
Kim, forget your ex-husband on this one. He doesn’t get it. Don’t waste your time. With respect to the unwillingness to go to the hospital, I’ve had some experience(s) with that. My father often refused to go to the hospital, but after one particular stroke, he realized he could die from this, he was more willing to go after that. When they get scared enough, they go. Evidently, your dad doesn’t understand his sugar problem. It sounds as if he had an insulin reaction. That requires food. If you are there and he won’t eat, call the paramedics. He’ll either eat for them, or when he passes out, they can give him glucose. He needs to be monitored when your stepmother goes out of town. I know that they’re stubborn about the hospital, about eating, but that’s when you have to become “mean.” I had to lie to my dad by telling him if he’d take the medicine, I’d take him home. The medicine was a knockout shot so they could do a cat-scan. He was angry, but he got over it. This is role reversal. You will now become the “parent.” It’s hard not to get upset, but remember that “all men are alike.” My father and my judge, very different men, both told me the same thing when hospitalized: “they took my pants.” Men don’t like not being in charge, not being independent. No one’s gonna tell them, so to speak. You must learn to tell your dad that it’s too bad so sad time, this is what he’s gonna do. In time, he will resist less.
You are in my prayers! If I could give you a big hug, I would.
31 — I know there is a difference which is why I brought it up; as a matter of compare and contrast. It appears you and others here favor community responsibility (as practiced by Texas) whereas I, the socialist, with Frank the libertarian favor individual responsibility (as practiced in B.C.). Given the stereotypes on this blog this is highly ironic.
Since the entire group is not being charged — why is the entire group being investigated and separated?
The US use of felony murder charges extends responsibility far more than any other country and is a disproportionate response to the individual’s responsibility for the murder.
see http://tinyurl.com/5u8z47 A NYT article detailing how lending a criminal your car could result in life imprisonment.
This notion of joint responsibility may explain the actions of Texas in holding the entire community responsible but lets not pretend that this is not a disproportionate response.
Frank, I was just asking a question. For example; if a woman and her daughter were living with a sister and her family and one of the sister’s children was suspected of being abused would they take the woman’s daughter as well? I;m asking what the law is in this situation.
Life is better. Thanks
Kim (& others with older parents)-
Next time something like this happens, or if there is any question of him maybe needing medical attention…
CALL 911.
Many elderly think that maybe they’ll drive themselves to the hospital or maybe they’ll just “wait & see”. I’ve been told that it is best to call 911 & let the paramedics deal with it (as NJL mentioned).
It takes the onus off of your shoulders, too.
Frank,
I do indeed know Libertarian politics, and it’s ultimately an extremist ideology, much like Marxism. It has attracted a small but rabid following in America. While I know my comments will probably outrage you, I really don’t give a rat’s behind.
What I do care about is protecting children from abuse. Given the insular community and it’s cult-like operations, the Texas authorities did what what necessary to protect the children. Were mistakes make? Yes. But I’d still rather have a mistake made in favor or the children than not.
Anlir I have to disagree with you here. To remain consistent in my criticism of the Patriot Act, I would also have to criticize the Texas authorities. In both cases guilt by association (Muslim or FLDS) and a presumption of guilt (terrorism or child abuse) is allowed in the guise of protecting the people. The notion of collective responsibility is not democratic. Frequently, people post here for the need of Muslim moderates to be more active as if its their responsibility that their co-believers are more extremist similarly here the Texas authorities arrest and separate the total group as if its the group’s responsibility to ensure there are no child brides and forced marriages.
Similarly, the notion of felony murder or the plethora of RICO type laws, ie conspiracy, allowing the US authorities to arrest anyone with slightest connection to perpetrators and allow the courts (or more likely plea bargains) to sort it out.
Both examples point to a society that is consumed internally by its police-corrections industry.
I have missed Lynn, I hope she comes back soon.
Let’s keep Lynn in prayer, this must be a difficult time for her. She has contributed so much to this blog.
HRW,
The bottom line with this matter is that underage girls were forced to marry older men. While you may think that’s acceptable, most people think it’s appalling.
I agree with you on the Patriot Act though.
The bottom line Anlir is some people who weren’t underage and didn’t force children to marry old men were also included in the large net the authorities decided to cast. Its the concept of group responsibility — the same concept which leads people to arrest a bunch of Afghan and Arabs, transport them to Gitmo and then wait five - seven years while the authorities sort them out. Of course I am against terrorism and am against child brides but the ends do not justify the means.
That being interpreted, HRW is: So, let the girls be raped.
This is not about favoring “community or group responsibility.” It is about stopping the crime in progress and sorting it out. That’s not easy when dealing with an insular society where everyone is so intermingled. As I understand it, men were not arrested and not all the women were removed from the compound.
So, tell me, how would you determine who did what in this situation, and be specific. Give me your plan. It sounds like you are willing to leave abused children in the custody of potential abusers while you figure it out.
HRW,
I don’t know how much this has been covered up in Canada, but it’s received a good bit of coverage in the States. This is a closed community, that wouldn’t let outsiders in, and very cult-like in it’s thinking and actions. The child brides were not permitted to talk to the authorities and the members of the group denied it was happening. Given all that, how was Texas supposed to deal with the situation?
The bottom line is, in America the authorities (including teachers) are obligated by law to act if they have a reasonable belief that abuse or neglect is taking place. The law falls on the side of protecting the child, since they are the most vulnerable. Do the authorities screw up sometimes? Sure. That’s what the judicial and legislative system is there for - to keep them in check. Sometimes you have to act in the best interest of the child and sort it out later.
It sounds like you are willing to leave abused children in the custody of potential abusers while you figure it out.
Potential is the key word you use. Similarly do we arrest potential thieves, potential murderers,etc. Its this tendency that leads to a police state mentality where we arrest based on religious, ethnicity, colour etc in the guise of protection. After all if you have nothing to hide, why not let the state takeover.
Anlir
google Bountiful, British Columbia — we have our own FLDS community. Until an individual is identified, the police can only investigate within the constraints of the law. As soon as abuse is noted, the authoroties are obligated to act to protect the individual that is being abused. And then continue to investigate. Its a slow and frustrating process but to do otherwise is to give up freedom for the suffocating protection of the state.
HRW,
And how is the abuse supposed to be “noted”, when the child bride (or anyone in the group) is forbidden to report it and the police are not allowed in to investigate?
The FDLS compound in Texas is out in the middle of nowhere. Most of the children have never been off the compound or had any contact with the outside world. They have no access to a phone or computer. So how is a child supposed to report their abuse? By carrier pigeon?
Even in the open society of America and Canada it’s very difficult for child abuse to be brought forward. If we’ve learned anything from the Catholic Church scandals, it’s that abuse stretches back for decades, yet is just now being discovered.
Perhaps there’s a significant difference between Canada’s laws and the US’s laws. In the US, teachers, physicians, etc. are mandated by law to report suspicions of child abuse, and the authorities are required to investigate. Given that you’re a teacher, I’m just astounded at your callous attitude toward this issue.
You worry about the possibility of a police state. I worry about the reality of child abuse and neglect. The fact is, in America anyway, the vast majority of child abuse and neglect is unreported and uninvestigated.
Pity the DHS workers. If they investigate suspected child abuse, they’re berated for acting like a “police state”. If they don’t investigate and a child is abused or dies, they’re berated for falling down on the job. Just like teachers, the vast majority of them are trying to do the best they can. They’re doing the job because they want to protect children.
Breitbart
Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant
Apr 28 03:45 PM US/Eastern
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer
SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect’s ranch have been pregnant.
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
Anlir — I am mandated by law to report abuse as is many other professions yet this doesn’t mean I advocate reporting the entire housing project for the abuse of some families.
The FLDS communities are not entirely isolated — they use physicians, outside contractors, utility companies, nursing agencies, medical facilities, etc. Common police work can established enough just cause to investigate individuals. Interview the “lost boys” and the police will learn sufficient information about the community.
HRW,
You might not be aware, however Mormons use their own doctors, dentists, and any other people such as contractors, nursing, etc.
HRW,
Mayhe the community in Canada uses outside contractors, etc. But the community in Texas was almost completely self-sustaining, venturing into town occasionally for supplies and to sell some of their wares. The children are schooled on the compound. The compound has their own doctor, dentist, clinic, general store, and other amenities. You could neither get in or outwithout
But really, HRW, I’d like to see you spend sometime in a local Family Court and observe the unimaginable abuse and neglect that daily overwhlems the systemn. I’d like you to look into the eyes of a trembling 12 year old girl who’s daddy has been raping her. Then get back to me about your worries of a police state.
Anlir, we so rarely agree, but this time we do.