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Morning!
Today’s quote is from a writer: “The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain’t so.”
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Less is more
Ya know Kristin, for some reason I always thought this quote came from the greatest US president: Ronald Reagan. I know I am mistaken (as usual) but that’s what I thought.
Anyhow, have a most bodacious day. I know I will because I’m on my way to open the restaurant this morning.
Mark Twain.
“Fleas can be taught nearly anything that a congressman can.” - Mark Twain
Just finished reading the end of the thread on Penny Pinching from yesterday, and it reminded me of one of my favorite quotes. In the NYT op-ed/obit for the inventor of ramen noodles (”R.I.P. Momofuku”), Lawrence Downes wrote, “Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. Give him ramen noodles, and you don’t have to teach him anything.”
I ate a lot of Ramen noodles when I was in college. I’ve been tempted to grab a packet just to see what they really taste like when you are not desperate.
Kbells — not good, I still keep a small supply at work for when I’m too lazy to either pack a lunch or go walk to a restaraunt for lunch…
I keep seeing the polygamy ladies on tv trying to convince me that they’re normal. What I’m not seeing are 30 year old grandmothers (think about it) or men. Where are their men? The men don’t care about ther kids? Just sayin’.
The men are probably laying low, since they are the ones who are going to get in trouble…
Kbells - I have a great recipe for making ramen noodles taste good - It’s really a Nappa Cabbage salad recipe. Yummy. I’m going to make some for lunch today.
Kinda makes you wonder what motivates the men to marry multiple wives in the first place doesn’t it?
MIM and NJL - I’ve been watching some of those women talking to the media. They are very good at evading questions they don’t want to answer in their soft spoken way of changing the subject. It was my understanding that these mothers (the same few spokeswomen) wanted to talk to the media. Their goal seems to be to to put the media focus where THEY want it.
Klasko, I agree with you. Apparently, something similar happened in the 50s or 60s — I don’t recall this at all — and they got around it by making everyone feel sorry for the mothers. I don’t think that will work this time. I was being more sarcastic than anything else. It just seems to me if these adults had a position that was defensible — and I don’t think they do, though they’ll try all sorts of legal manipulations — the men would be out there saying “they’re my kids.”
MIM, I’m a girl, I can’t tell you what motivates men (I’m thinkin’ the sex, but ….). What I’m wondering is: now I’m seeing women who seem to be middle-aged, so they’ve been in on this for awhile, but why don’t they get bent out of shape at the disappearance of the men? They “love” these gutless guys? It is amazing how they don’t see how they’ve been used. (Okay, I admit I want to smack the older ones!)
NJL - These men are all behind the scenes. They never left the compound as I understand it.
I agree with you, Klasko. I just wish the press would point that out. No one is talking about the men at all!
Not to change the subject or anything, but in other news today ex-President Jimmy Carter, lately of the United States of America, is meeting with Hamas somewhere in the Middle East today, where it is rumored that he will officially change his name to Mohammed and shortly embark on a four week training period in Pakistan for aspiring suicide bombers. Yesterday, he went shopping in Damascus and selected a striking suicide bomber vest with matching boots, an outfit which has been featured as ‘Best-in-Show’ in the Jihad Fashion Monthly in Tehran in February.
President Carter has expressed great interest in the 70 black-eyed virgins which are part of the suicide bomber deal, as he ‘has always struggled with the lust problem’ and 70 black-eyed virgins would go a long way to easing his dilemma (although not the more unpleasant dilemma of the 70 black-eyed virgins, which is another issue). Anyway, Mrs. Carter has supported this plan, as long as it gets him out of the house and somewhere very, very far away from her.
The Secret Service, which has responsibility for protecting President Carter, is apparently reviewing their protocol of how to deal with this ‘new and unforeseen situation’, in the halting English of Ali Habib Hussein, the current U.S. Secret Service spokesperson, who is serving on temporary assignment from the Hamas Personnel Agency based in Damascus, Syria.
You have to remember that those women were brought up in this religion. If you listen to other women who have come out of similar cults or earlier variations, there is a lot of fear instilled in them. One woman admitted that she decided going to hell was preferable to what she and her children were enduring. It was after being free for a long time that she realized she would not go to hell for leaving. It took her a long time to overcome all she was taught. I pray even more of these woman will jump at the chance to get out while the gettin is good.
Drill, Rush says Roseland is behind all this. She was impressed by the lauditory comments at Nixon’s funeral and wanted Jimmy to do something besides drive nails so they could say something nice at his funeral. So far, the best thing he’s ever done is drive nails.
Some won’t like to hear this, but Jimmy Carter is such a nice guy, he doesn’t understand human nature. He thinks the problems we have in the world are due to miscommunication. He is too nice to be in the public arena.
Regardless of what else you think of him, he’s just too nice.
KI, I do remember these things. That’s why I’m hoping that the judge rules in favor of the police and CPS. We can’t do anything about adult women who are brainwashed, except pray. I just want the responsible parties to step up to the plate and take their punishment for this. Please do not misunderstand — I have sympathy for them. But they’ve had a shock, they’ve lost their children, this is something that should wake them up.
I also think Jimmy Carter is a nice guy, a humble soul, but he’s even more naive than I am. He’s misguided.
Grandma: Enjoy your virtual cappuccino!
I have to be very careful what I say about Jimmy Carter. My MIL thinks he is wonderful and even went to his church once and tried to get in his Sunday School class. He was out that day.
I have something fun here. And no, I’m not going to save it for a “rave” tomorrow–I have others that will work for that.
A few years ago I planted irises in a little square patch of soil in front of my house. They didn’t bloom at all the first couple years, but then they started blooming. But they bloom late, May or June, and I’ve thought about adding bulbs that bloom earlier for some spring color. Well, this year in addition to the irises coming up, a narrower plant also came up–a number of them–scattered among the irises. I don’t know plants terribly well, but I was 95% sure they were a bulb and not a weed, so I left them.
This morning they have their first blooms. They’re a little tiny daffodil, white on the outside with a yellow-orange center. I don’t know why they’re blooming later than all the other daffodils, but they’re sweet. And after five years in this house to suddenly have daffodils I didn’t plant is rather unexpected, and fun.
Cheryl, your flowers must be beautiful. What color are your irises?
A foster care update: the little girls get to go home to their mommy and daddy today! It has been fun, they have been a delight, none of the unpleasant actions we were warned about happened. They laughed, they played, they ate well, went to bed early (six to six thirty) and woke up around six. Some problems with sleep disturbances so we are tired.
For those of you who think it horrible for the state to wrench children from their homes and hand them off to strangers, we agree. That is why we do this. When we were homeschooling many years ago, we saw that sometimes children were taken. We also have seen some of the homes they are placed and realized we would prefer children placed with people like us so we became the people. Think about it.
It is not convenient. It is not easy. It is very expensive. It takes a willingness to be inspected and trained and fingerprinted. But these children are being removed (sometimes for good cause but who is to say?) and need good homes where they can wait for the court to decide. But if the Lord is calling you to do it, you might consider giving it a try. If not, try to be aware of the needs these children have that you might be able to help with. We do live in a country where children are removed, what can we do? Not many are called to this, but perhaps some reading this are and have been wondering if it is worth it. You won’t know until you try.
Victoria,
The irises are pretty much standard deep purple with bits of yellow–large ones. When I heard that the iris is the Tennessee flower, the mockingbird its bird, and the raccoon its mammal, I knew I’d like it here.
Thanks for the update, Mumsee. That was part of my motivation as well–that the kids have to have somewhere to go, so why not to a Christian home. I have relatives who say foster care is wrong, and thus foster parents are supporting an evil system. I say that if your kids are ever taken away (God forbid that that should happen), the knowledge that most of today’s foster parents are Christians should bring at least some measure of comfort.
Has anyone heard how Lynn is doing? I’ve been praying for her.
Cheryl, Irisis are beautiful bulbs. They bloom later than most others. When they are well established they will propigate by dividing. Just separate and replant them. Soon you will be giving them away.
Mumsee,
God bless you. We have talked about being foster parents after some of our brood move out. You are correct, there is a huge need for good foster care.
I watched the interviews with these Texas sect mothers on the Larry King and Nancy Grace shows last night. (Yes, I need to get a life).
Spooky stuff. These women are clearly not all there (understatement of the year). They’ve been programmed by some sicko , and clearly need help. It was extremely painful for me to watch them.
Their men are now in hiding. These ‘men’ are cowards of the worst kind. I consider myself a peaceful hipster dude, but all I could think of last night was how nice it would be to haul out some of my old boxing moves on a few of these ‘men’. Weight on back foot: jab/jab, cross, duck/step, hook/uppercut.
Y’all can focus your anger and disgust at Aliza Shvartz (YaleAbortionArt gal). These men make me sick.
In a perfect world, there would be no need for foster parents, but we don’t live in that world. I commend you ladies for becoming foster mothers, and I pray that most foster parents are like you. (Sadly, I know in NJ that this is not always the case.) There are parents who just should not be parents and should have no access to their children. I’m sorry to have to say it, but it’s true. Sometimes the only hope those kids have is people like Mumsee and Cheryl.
Do not take this the wrong way: I am “grateful” for the lawyers being lawyers today. Sure, they are “representing” their clients’ rights, and they should. But there mere fact that 350 lawyers showed up and the judge has to take her time to figure this all out means that the kids will remain in state control until she does. I’m thankful to God for that outcome. So far, so good. And yes, I know it is hard on the kids. I really do. But better this than being raped.
Okay, I am going to address this and please keep in mind, I have no idea of the correct answer. Some disclaimers: I am not LDS, nor FLDS, I do not agree with the teachings or the actions, however… Could it be that in a culture where the children are taught from a young age that they will be married at thirteen (or whatever) and the church will select their spouses. And they are surrounded by people doing the same thing. And they have been taught the perceived reasons for doing so. And taught that they will be going to hell for not cooperating. And they live in a secure home with people who love them and care for them and are teaching them how to work and the school things. Is it better to be removed from that security and put into the foster system with all that entails? Keep in mind, many of these children are probably already married (I have not been following the case). Once in foster care, they could be moved from home to home as the right family is searched for that can address the needs of the children and further damage is inflicted on already horribly damaged image bearers.
In my view, it is better to put the moms on probation outside of the “grounds” or even in if house parents can be found, where they continue to offer the security the children need. The men, on the other hand should all be shot at sunrise for doing or accomplising. The women are given an opportunity to see the error of their ways (breaking the law wile living off the beast) and either shot next week or allowed to continue to raise their children in a more healthy environment.
Shot here means done to, to the full extent of the law.
There are people in my church who were married at fifteen. It was not considered a problem back then. People in many cultures marry young and have arranged marriages. To us here and now, it may be a huge problem but to many people all over the world, it is the norm. I believe the spiritual brainwashing is the bigger crime here. Having sex at a young age happen in all our high schools and I suspect there is a lot of duress that goes with it. Nothing new here. Prosecute the old guys but don’t continue to harm the victims.
This probably should have been on the polygamy thread but I was busy and did not read much of it.
Mumsee,
I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and I see you have too. This is one ugly mess. I see your points, and YES in some cultures girls are married very young, however we live in the US and our laws are not unknown to the FLDS that’s why they hide out on their compounds, they don’t want anyone to know what they do.
The mothers aren’t all victims, they know its not right, they are part of the problem, that’s why they have been separated from their children.
Many who come from this cult often say how bad they felt when they were made to marry some older man without their consent.
Why would ANY mother allow her child to be MADE TO MARRY? What kind of a loving mother is that? (we’ve all watched the clips about “I love my sweet children”) I believe this is the real question. I couldn’t bear to help my daughter dress for her wedding at age 13, 14, 15 in tears, saying she didn’t want to marry the man, it would make little difference to me how old she was, marriage isn’t a COMMAND PERFORMANCE.
Mumsee in all fairness, I believe the right thing has been done. Yes its hard, its sad, it pulls at my heart, the children must be scared. BUT WAIT A MOMENT, whats best for the kids, how many might be saved from this horrible life?
I just can’t imagine my dear mother making me marry some old man whom I didn’t want to marry and being 14 year old. One day laughing and playing with my friends, going to the beach, and the next climbing into bed with an old guy who is old enough to be my grandfather. That’s enough to make me vomit.
Victoria,
I am right along with you on that. But, these children were not playing with their friends and going to the beach, they were being prepared for this from birth. And yes, it is illegal in the US and I agree with that. My concern is: this is what they were taught from the start so they have a different perspective. None of them should be forced to marry but I suspect (I do not know, only guessing from what I know of people and cultures) some were very much looking forward to this and the thought of running their own household, or being a second wife or seventh with a portion to run, was a goal for them. Not a very good goal in our eyes to be sure, but looking at it from their eyes… perhaps the problems of foster care (and they could easily be going from a home where the mom and dad are actually protecting them from the church and letting them have some say to a foster home where they will quite possibly be sexually abused. This is a serious thing they are doing. I do not know the ratio of those being dragged to the altar with tears flowing to those skipping their way along in hopes of being called into heaven by their new god.
Mumsee,
They most likely know from a certain age they might be married off at a young age, however most children wouldn’t comprehend the sexual part as early as kids outside their compound do today, because they are protected from reality. (I don’t think I worded that as I would have wished, but this subject is ugly)
I believe the day when they awake from childhood, and realize they REALLY are going to marry the old man tomorrow, has a different effect, rather than thinking its a far off day in the future.
Most of the women I have watched on TV who have given their stories about early marriage, etc., couldn’t wait to get out. They left behind everyone they loved, just for the sake of not being abused and married off.
All my research into cults has been a long road. One thing they warn their members over and over again, this is in essence what is said “if you leave, you won’t have your family or friends, you will be alone” this is very upsetting to women, and men too. However women in cults are not equipped to earn a living, much less take their children with them and hope they will find fiends who will see their plight and help rescue their lives.
I don’t believe for a moment that a young girl is happy to marry the old man, or any man she isn’t attracted to.
Victoria,
Not all of them marry old men, do they? And they are brought up to believe that it is an honor to be the wife of certain ones. Perhaps the sexual part is portrayed as something everybody has to do so they can get those spirit children housed. With no concept of what the Lord had originally planned, they have nothing to which they can compare what they are doing. I agree, from our perspective it is horrible. And all I have heard from the escapers, it is horrible. But for the girls in it (I have relatives that may or may not be part of that sort of life, and some have entered in from outside of their own choice) it is the only thing they know. Not trying to argue, just trying to make certain we are not throwing the kids from the frying pan into the fire. Foster care is not always a safe place.
As much as I disagree with polygamy and young girls being forced into arranged marriages, it is true that when girls are raised in a culture where that is the expected norm, there is little trauma involved. In our culture (and most Western cultures), we expect to marry for love. However, in the culture I live in, which also has polygamy (although no more than 4 wives per man) and child brides with old men, marrying for love is the exception not the rule. Girls seem to go quite willingly into marriage to a cousin, uncle or even someone who is almost a total stranger. It is not unusual for a girl to have only seen her prospective husband one time before being married.
So, in many ways, the children being raised in this cult are not necessarily experiencing the psychological trauma that would go with rape. We call it rape because of the underage girls, but they, like the girls I know here, probably view it as just part of life. Being married in most cultures is considered a rite of passage into adulthood (being single I have problems with that, but that’s beside the point), so for most teen girls that’s an exciting thing. Not long ago in U.S. history, girls married quite young and it was not considered to be a problem.
I am not defending these people’s actions. Polygamy and sex with minors is against the law in the United States, but I do think that treatment of these women and children should be tempered by some understanding of the culture in which they have been raised. They have in essence been raised is a foreign culture and thus see life through a much different filter than most of us. Chances are the older women were also born and raised in the cult.
Ajisuun,
That is what I was trying to say, thanks.
Mumsee you and Ajisuun make some good points however, I am not swayed. The US has laws that forbid this type of life, and if those laws are broken, those who have broken them are prosecuted.
I still believe that these women know better, they are not ignorant. If you listen to them speak its apparent they are able dodge every question in relationship to age, marriage and pregnancy. This is lying, and they know it. If they can lie about their lifestyle, then they know there is a difference, they aren’t ignorant of this fact.
A point I want to make is this; we cannot compare our lives here in the US to third world countries as though there is some sort of truth to be drawn from their strange practices. There is no comparison to be made.
Victoria,
They have broken the law, they know they have broken the law, they should be prosecuted according to the law. I just thought it might be possible a better solution for the children would be a house arrest. We view it as rape and associate the trauma of rape to it. I am not certain the girls do. In the eyes of the law, there is a price to be paid. It seems to me that we are killing the victims (the children not the mothers moving their children into the system) with our compassion. Not only do they come out with the scars of their religious training but we add on the burden of foster care when it should be possible with some of that welfare money we pay them to do this, to put in some house parents to wean the children out of the life gently rather than cast them into foster care where well meaning people will want to introduce them to all the fruits they have not had. TV, movies, porn, jeans, alcohol, midrif tops, drugs, low rise pants, capris, swim suits, sex, whatever. Not that these are all bad but they will all be counter to what these children know. It will add to the harm.
Mumsee,
If they were all in the same house together, it would give the mothers a good OPPORTUNITY to tell their children what to say. By separating the children from the mother this cannot happen. This sort of separation is common in California.
Let’s face it, there is no simple answer. I believe that Texas is doing all they can to work this out.
I doubt any of these girls are wearing jeans or doing drugs, drinking, watching porn…
Victoria,
My point is that a lot of well meaning people (I have met some of them and my children have experienced their help) think certain children need to be exposed to life. They do not generally do it with the intent of being obnoxious, they think that what they are doing is okay so everybody should do the same.
These girls wear very modest dresses and probably always have. A good foster home will know that and appreciate it and see that they have that manner of style until the girl is ready to make an adjustment. A well meaning but wrong one might insist the girl “try it on! You will look so cute!” And the girl will have a serious conflict in her mind, adding to her angst.
As far as getting information from children to charge their parents by separating the kids from the parents, I think that is outrageous. Of course, the children can be lead into saying things. Kids say very interesting things. One child might say, “My dad yells at us all the time” when in truth, he may have looked them in the eye and spoke firmly and no bystander would think of it as yelling. The social worker can then take that yelling to mean the child is terrified of dad. We all have biases and directions for the discussion, we see it on here all the time.
Of course the moms are going to try to get them to say the right things, but if they have pregnant girls and legal recourse for DNA, the case should be made without children being forced to speak against their parents, adding yet another burden. Remember, we had one boy here that felt he was absolutely at fault for the kids being in foster care because of a decision he made to walk the kids to school when they missed the bus. He took that burden on and there was no vaidity to it, but he believed it and it contributed to his view of himself as a loser.
It used to be you couldn’t be made to testify against a spouse in court (adult against adult), so indeed, this case should be built without the tesimony of children kept it “solitary confinement” as far as contact with their parents is concerned. As I pointed out yesterday on another thread, the children’s birth certificates should be avaialable, and should be able to make a start toward proving a case. DNA evidence will, as well.
My point in using the culture I live in as an example was to try to highlight the fact that these people live in the United States, but have not lived in American culture. I never defended their actions or said it was okay. I only said that we all experience life through the grid of our cultural background. Therefore it is wise to take that cultural background into account when dealing with people (particularly children) from a different culture.