Are Muslim suicide bombers mujahideen (holy warriors) who participate in jihad and become shahidin (martyrs)? Or are they mufsidoon (evil-doers) engaged in hirabah (unholy war against society) and heading not to paradise but to jahannam (eternal hellfire)?
Muslims originally used the term hirabah to condemn vicious attacks by members of barbarian tribes who murdered or enslaved those they fought and defeated. Such barbarians engaged in “war against society,” often attacking — as do today’s terrorists – without discriminating between soldiers and civilians.
Muslim terrorists say they are not mufsidoon because the civilian adults they kill are aiding and abetting fighters against Islam, and because the children they kill would grow up to become aggressors. How many other Muslims follow that train of thought? The question of definition—jihad or hirabah—is crucial for Muslims, but most Americans are unaware of the debate.
Early in 2003 I search Lexis-Nexis and found seven references to hirabah in the previous 90 days and thousands to jihad. Islamic scholars were debating, though. For example, Ezzeddin Ibrahim of the United Arab Emirates stated that “what occurred on Sept. 11, 2001, is one of the most loathsome of crimes, which in Islam goes under the name of al-hirabah.”
Similarly, Akbar Ahmed, chairman of Islamic Studies at American University, said that “al-Qaeda’s brand of suicide mass murder and its fomenting of hatred among races, religions, and cultures do not constitute godly or holy jihad—but, in fact, constitute the heinous crime and sin of unholy hirabah.” Tamman Adi, director of the Islamic Cultural Center in Eugene, Ore., also argued that “the masterminds of international terrorism are not fighting a jihad, they are hirabah thugs.”
I searched Lexis-Nexis again yesterday and found only three references to hirabah over the past 90 days, versus 719 references to jihad in the past week alone. But when we use the word jihad in relation to terrorism, our choice of words honors an activity that should instead be given the dishonorable ID of hirabah.
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I can’t be part of the debate because I’m not Muslem. However, I have often wondered, and posted about this.
When a man destroys himself in attempts to destroy others, he is assurred that Allah has untold pleasures with the “black eyed with shamed faces”.
Now. What authority gives him that assurrance. During the crusades, the pope gave that assurrance, but I’m sure most smart people doubted that. Since Islam has no Papal authority, who has the authority to assure paradise. Have heard comments that the Hadath (sp?) confirms it.
If I were thinking about the “black eyed”, I would also think about,”who says”.
To complicate this more. If I were Sunni, how do I know the same blessings go to me if I kill Shiites?
I really doubt that all these guys are stupid. But I think the really smart ones are the guys who say, “You guys go out and martyr yourselves.” Then go home to their four wives.
Muslim suicide bombers don’t worship Allah. “They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Abaddon, Apollyon Destroyer
If I may ask, how can one provide any objective justification for what are clearly subjective beliefs?
Certain muslims appear to believe that these suicide bombings are part of a jihad.
Certain muslims appear to believe that these suicide bombings are part of hirabah.
Certain Christains believe that the Bible is inerrant.
Certain Christians do not believe the Bible is inerrant.
And how, from a belief perspective, does one conclusively show that one belief is true and the other false?
I’ve got two Muslim guys in my office. Born and raised in the US, they are very pleasant, normal, hardworking guys with no extreme beliefs. A pleasure to work with. Except when the talk turns to Israel. Then their personalities change completely and they make the most vicious and bizarre remarks imaginable, saying that all Israelis are criminals, that the west deliberately sent Jews in to exterminate Muslims, etc. Very, very odd. I have a deep distrust of Islam in all of its forms because of this type of duplicity.
mufsidoon, of course, by all human standards.
My Muslim colleagues are the same, John M. That is not to say all Muslims are like this. They are pleasant and friendly unless the subject switches to politics or religion. Then they become different people. These fellows also spend their nights and weekends participating in anti-American rallies and talk endlessly about the virtues of Noam Chomsky. This duplicity is part of Islam.
No matter how nice and friendly a Muslim is, one cannot ignore Islamic ideology, which reveres a terrorist who wrote the book on terror. If your life is built around a terrorist’s handbook then something is dangerously wrong, no matter how friendly one is otherwise.
However, when the thread gets gaid, everyone stays calm over here in Christian land.
The Muslim (from Morroco) who worked next to me quit because he got a better job that paid twice as much. He already had shrugged when he saw a picture of my granddaughter with her two mommies, chuckled when we made jokes about our various ancestries (including my Jewish one), and laughed when I told him my Osama joke.
Nevertheless, he follows Ramadan.
On his last day on the job, workers invited him out for a drink. He went.
Either his cover as a terrorist is really, really deep or he has been utterly corrupted by his time in America. If you decide who decides these things, perhaps I should report him so they can declare a wahfat on him.
Now I haven’t read much of the Koran, but my understanding is that those suicide bombers worship Allah more fervently than the vast majority of Muslims. Perhaps that’s why so few people are using the term [i]hirabah[/i].
How does it compare to the conquest of Canaan in the Old Testament? They were supposed to kill everyone because the Canaanite “burns his son or his daughter as an offering” and practices divination and sorcery and necromancy and such. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) God took complete responsibility for their deaths, as he does with all death–as the wages of sin. However, he also made it abundantly clear to the Israelites that they themselves did not deserve to live any more than the Canaanites did or than their Egyptian slave-masters did, and that his broader purpose was to introduce himself to the world as the God of people born in slavery and delivered by his awesome power. (Romans 6:17-23, etc.)
Does anyone understand what the broader purpose of Jihad is?
I propose a new interrogation technique that is safe enough for the CIA and airport screeners. No more need for waterboarding or debates on the definition of terror. A few statements like this will do the trick:
- So Israel is a great place isn’t it?
- Bush is doing a great job isn’t he?
- Noam Chomsky is kind of nutty, huh.
- America is a great country, isn’t it?
- Those Jews are great, aren’t they?
- Muslims sure to get angry easily, don’t they?
If the person answers ‘No’ to all of these questions or has his fingers wrapped around your throat, then you might just want to take him in for further questioning. Or you might release him for simply being a Democrat.
I realize of course, that interrogation techniques that offend people are far more controversial than torture. Torture them? Sure, but don’t even think of offending them!
Xion:
Quite the dilemma. But to differentiate a liberal from your average terrorist, I would throw in a question about sexual morality. Islamic facists may have no qualms about blowing up your family but they are certainly prudes when it comes to sexuality.
#8:
- So Israel is a great place isn’t it?
Don’t know, never been there.
- Bush is doing a great job isn’t he?
Bush is the worst president in American history. The greatest disaster since the Civil War.
- Noam Chomsky is kind of nutty, huh.
Chomsky is credited with the creation of the theory of generative grammar, considered to be one of the most significant contributions to the field of linguistics made in the 20th century.
- America is a great country, isn’t it?
America is the greatest country the world has ever seen. This is why it’s such a tragedy what people like Bush are doing to it.
- Those Jews are great, aren’t they?
I don’t know. Are they?
- Muslims sure to get angry easily, don’t they?
Some do, some don’t. Invading a country that never attacked us sure doesn’t help. We should have stuck with getting Bin Laden, the guy that actaully attacked the US.
Sure hope this answered your questions. If you have anymore, don’t hesitate to ask.
Muslim suicide bombers
So, the two choices are they go to heaven or they go to hell.
Actaully, the third choice is that they just die. For no good reason. Just like all the people they kill. But they are remembered as idiots, easily mislead by believers in the occult.
I can be part of this debate because I’m a fellow human being with Muslims.
Olasky’s question was specifically about “Muslim suicide bombers”, not Muslims in general.
So, considering the innocence of the victims targeted by these bombers and all other aspects of their self-proclaimed murderous mission, the answer is easy: They are evil-doers engaged in hirabah.
Notice how it’s nearly always the young guys? They keep their women in bags and so seperated, the guys become desparate for a date. 72 virgins seem like heaven, but the old guys realize that just one is exhausting. Then, there would be all that yakety yak! Do they really believe that 72 virgins are going to keep quiet and let a guy sleep? Hardly.
They are so segregated, they only know how a woman looks from a book. They probaly think Jessica Rabbit is a real person. No wonder they are so hot to trot.
Finally, they get one home, unwrap her and find out she has a ’stache. How disappointing. Now, he’ll never become a suicide bomber. He realized the grass isn’t always greener. I bet most of those bombers have never even mowed a lawn. They are probably virgins themselves.
as long as a majority of the muslims believe they are oppressed by the west, they are probably going to see such actions as justifiable and on the side of righteousness.
i think westerners should learn from herbert’s DUNE, only replace the need for oil with that of the fictional “spice”.
It’s not that they feel threatened by the west, at least not at first.
Remember, Bin Laden and the US were on the same side fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. When Iraq invaded Kawait, Bin Laden wanted to lead the fight, but other Middle Eastern countries rallied behind the US to lead the fight. Bush Sr. (an underrated president, one whose apple has fallen very far from the tree) understood the problem with “nation building”. This is why he left Sadam in power. He knew that he effectively nuetralized Sadam as a threat to the west.
This infuriated Bin Laden who felt it was a rejection of religion to allow infidel bases in Islamic holy lands. This is what lead to the attack on the WTC, US military bases in Arabia.
THEN, when Bush Jr. invaded Iraq, it was proof that the West was a threat and a danger. Imagine the Soviets invading Mexico. Would we see that as a threat? Would we tolorate it?
We didn’t bring democracy to Iraq. We helped them put Islam into their constitution. Only the credible would think that Iraq is now a democracy.
So, what have we done? We let the guy that attacked us go. We invaded the wrong country. When these things are pointed out, Republicans say we don’t support the troops. Blackwater is better equiped than our own soldiers. Who isn’t supporting the troops. Ok now, let’s get real.
One point to remember is the complete irrationality that many - perhaps most - Muslims have when it comes to Israel. Their thinking along these lines is comparable to the kooks in this country who believe that Bush brought down the World Trade Towers. Not only that, but from a very young age, young Muslim children are taught to hate the Jews. Imagine if the Klan ran the public schools in this country incorporating their racist nonsense into the curriculum? That’s what we’re dealing with over there.
Musing: And how, from a belief perspective, does one conclusively show that one belief is true and the other false?
Dante reserved the lowest rung deep in the Inferno for those who remained neutral on the serious moral issues of their time.
“Muslim terrorists say they are not mufsidoon because the civilian adults they kill are aiding and abetting fighters against Islam, and because the children they kill would grow up to become aggressors.”
Cchhheeeeyyyyeah…. As the old gunslinger said once…
“See ya in hell!”
Islamofascist suicide bombers are insane homicidal murderers and nothing more. It wouldn’t be right, and bad policy, to put a Muslim tag, good or bad, on them of any kind.
Once Muslims understand this is so, maybe they will take the steps, that only they can take, to eliminate the cancer consuming their religion.
But, I am still calling them Islamofascist Homicidal Murderers in the hope that Muslims will eventually be convinced this is so and somehow control their fear, pride and ego that keeps them from taking even the first baby step required to eliminate the cancer that continues to grow and spread. One that will likely kill their own god and religion in the end.
This baby step is to admit to themselves that this deadlyn problem is one that they created and only they can fix.
Well, blow me down! I think this is the first time I have ever liked something that Marvin has written. Kudos to him for presenting both sides.
I will make two additional points:
1. Muslims do not have a central authority (think “independent Baptist”). One can cite certain Muslim scholars or Mullahs, but no one man speaks for all of Islam.
2. There is a great division in Islam between Sunni and Shia. It is fueling much of the strife in the Muslim world, from the Middle East, to Africa, to the South Pacific.
I know I’ve already mentioned it, but there is a great write up on religion, including Islam, in the latest issue of “The Economist” (11/4/07). It should be in your local bookstore and is probably online (I haven’t looked).
Except when the talk turns to Israel. Then their personalities change completely and they make the most vicious and bizarre remarks imaginable, saying that all Israelis are criminals, that the west deliberately sent Jews in to exterminate Muslims, etc. Very, very odd. I have a deep distrust of Islam in all of its forms because of this type of duplicity.
A little background is needed to understand the reaction. The establishment of Isreal is viewed by many Arabs as a neo-colonial Western state intruding upon self determination. From this basis, which is somewhat understandable, the usual blanery has been fed to the masses by the Arab elite including the protocols of Zion and other conspiracies. Most of these irrational fears are derived from traditional European stereotypes of Jews and indeed Arab attitudes are no different today than many Eastern Europeans today. My reaction when faced with these stories is not to dismiss them out of hand nor try to refute them (which is impossible to true believers) but to simply point out the simplest explanation is usual the correct one.
9/11 conspiracies including one that blames Isreal are also better refuted when you point out underpaid security guards and an attention deficient adminstration allowed a bunch religious freaks to take over planes and fly them into a building. Much simplier and more likely the truth than some long convulted story about Jews or a complicit administration.
So Israel is a great place isn’t it?
Never been there but I would like to see all the ancient sites I’ve read about.
Bush is doing a great job isn’t he?
Are you delusional????
Noam Chomsky is kind of nutty, huh.
In terms of linguists I prefer Steven Pinker. Politically he’s too old school for my tastes. Most of his analysis is based on New Left ideology from the 60s. He needs to take a better look at the younger anti-globalization theorists. In fact his whole generation although a larger demographic needs to step aside as they have become complacent and so predictable to ignore.
America is a great country, isn’t it?
Great place, great people — a little too friendly and exhubert for my taste but I like to visit especially now that you’re dollar has fallen below mine. However, I do prefer Canada.
Those Jews are great, aren’t they?
I normally don’t generalize on the basis of religion or ethnicity but I will say I never met a Jew I didn’t like. But I could say the same for Anglicans.
Muslims sure to get angry easily, don’t they?
No different than Americans when they feel threated. The politics of fear work world wide.
HRW, the Americans stood up for Europe in the World Wars, the Cold War, and presently in the war against Islamo-fascism. That includes your former country,, the Netherlands, which would have been obliterated hadn’t America fought hard and left hundred of thousands of American soldier’s graves in Europe. Your characterization of this as this the politics of fear is both mistaken and rather uncharitable.
HRW,
Great points in explaining the attitudes of my Muslim co-workers. However, understanding it does not make it okay. Whether these guys came to these ideas on their own, or were brainwashed, it’s still offensive and dangerous. We don’t excuse lynch mobs just because they were raised in racist households.
Moreover, these guys were BORN IN THE US. If they are so fully indoctrinated by some hate-mongering parent or mullah, it points to a dangerous extremist element right here at home.
Here is the point I think some of you are missing. We can go on endlessly that not all Muslims are bad, only the bad ones are bad. Fine.
But what would you say about someone who says that his hero is Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer or one of the 9/11 pilots who blew up the World Trade Center?
A Muslim is a person who reveres Muhammad. He was a highway bandit who made his living lying, cheating, stealing, terrorizing and assassinating people. He is responsible for the genocide of a community of Jews. He wrote a popular book calling for the torture of Christians and Jews. His book has caused endless wars and is responsible for most of the conflicts in the world today.
Are all Muslims violent? Of course not! But a Muslim is someone who by definition makes a terrorist their hero. Anybody got a problem with that? Why do we pretend that Islam is a religion of peace? Is this mass deception or simply mass ignorance?
As an obsessed student of this, I must confirm Anlir’s words, but with one addition: there are several mullahs and imams that are considered to be highly influential amongst so-called ‘moderate’ Muslims. If they were to get together and denounce terrorist acts as hirabah al jahannam, maybe we’ll see some change.
America is a great country. But trampling the constitution is not the way to keep it great. Torture is expressly forbidden by our constitution.
Who can possibly believe torture works? Oh sure, you will hear about thousands of plots. Of course, none of them real. You don’t think Bush would honest about that?
Humanity has a history of torture. We have had hundreds of thousands of years of practice. Our founders knew this. Why do you think it was forbidden by the constitution?
Notice how the Bush administration has been strangely silent about the Burmese Monks? Why is that? Because they are being waterboarded. How can he take the high road when we are doing torture ourselves? We are following the lead of the old Soviet Union, the Gestapo and the North Koreans. Somewhat less than a lofty standard.
All this time, the Christians have remained silent, except to accuse the Democrats of being less than patriotic. The country Bush has attempted to turn this one into is not the America I knew. Spying? Torture? Why would you people think you are safe?
Daniel Levin, was acting assistant attorney general before Gonzolas, went to a military base and was waterboarded, “At his request”. He wanted to see if it was torture. He wrote a memo stating that, “Not only is it torture, it’s illegal”. He was promptly fired.
DANIEL LEVIN IS A TRUE AMERICAN. It was that important to him do know the TRUTH that he allowed himself to be tortured.
What a mess the next president will be stuck with. Hopefully, a special prosecuter will be appointed. Bush needs to be brought to justice AND we still need to get Bin Laden. Bin Laden brought down two buildings and killed over three thousand Americans. Bush only trashed the constitution and started a war in some far off country and still hasn’t captured Bin Laden. How on earth can you people still defend this awful man. How can you? It boggles the mind.
Solon your outrage is misplaced and wrong headed. Your comments don’t seem to link to my comments however if you insist on history I will oblige; (BTW I’m Canadian of Dutch descent.)
If you check a generic book on WWII, you will discover that the US did not liberate the Netherlands the Canadians did. If you look at a map of Europe and begin at Normandy, the Canadians took the left flank, the Brits the centre, and the Americans the right. As the war progressed, Canada on the left became responsible for clearing the Channel ports and liberating the Netherlands, the Brits trudged through the middle and in the end raced to cut the Soviets off from Denmark and the US liberated Paris, secured a Rhine bridgehead, drove into the Southern Redoubt and made their way to Prague and Vienna.
As for casualties: U.S. Combat Dead by Theater of war - Europe-Atlantic 182,070; Army ground forces 141,526; United States Army Air Forces 34,505 and Navy/Coast Guard 6,039; Asia-Pacific 106,207; Army ground forces 40,382; United States Army Air Forces 14,607; Navy/Coast Guard 31,485; Marine Corps 19,733. Unidentified Theatres- Army ground forces 3,854[16,584-591]. Included in combat deaths are 14,059 POWs, in Europe (1,124) and (12,935) in Asia[16,584-591]. A listing of individual U.S. Army deaths in World War Two can be found at the U.S. National Archives website [93
182, 000 hardly counts as hundreds of thousands.
To put this in prespective the deaths for the Soviet Union military is 8,668,400; including 6,330,000 killed in action/died of wounds and 556,000 dead from non-combat causes[7,85] plus an estimated 500,000 MIA and 1,283,000 POW dead out of 4,059,000 total POW[7,236]. However, the estimate by western historians of Soviet military POW deaths is about 3 million (out of 5.7 million total POWs)[83].[17, Table A] Richard Overy has noted that ” The official figures themselves must be viewed critically, given the difficulty of knowing in the chaos of 1941 and 1942 exactly who had been killed, wounded or even conscripted”.[21,XV] The official statistics do not include an additional estimated 1,500,000 conscripted reservists missing or killed, primarily in 1941, before being listed on active strength,150,000 militia and 250,000 Soviet partisan dead. [3, 20-21]Total Soviet population losses included approximately 13 million men aged 17 to 39.[11,78]
or if you insist the UK; Total deaths were 453,000 which included Army (210,191), Air Force (84,778), Navy (59,164), Merchant Navy (28,905), unidentified by branch of service (610), and civilian deaths (69,384). These losses include war related deaths during 1946-47.(16,628)[22] The losses of Newfoundland (905) and Malta are included in these figures but are listed separately on this schedule.
Sure I cut and paste for Wikpedia footnotes but the numbers do come DOD and other sources.
John M
Similarly many Eastern Europeans who harbour the same anti-Semitic conspracies are born right here in Canada, a nice place which seeks to be nice, yet these children of immigrants still have the same hate. Its not the religion but the continuity of ignorance.
I work with many Muslim men and women in our company. They are wonderful people. Most of them are more secular in their beliefs and every one of them are in the same boat as I am trying to make a living and take care of our families.
As to the article, I think there needs to be clarification made as to what sect of Islam is being portrayed. There are some twenty different sects of Islam. For instance the Druze Sect often serves in the Israeli Defense Force. The Bedouin Arab Sect in Israel also serves voluntarily. This group has often been a target of Hamas and Islamic Jihad with suicide bombers. The IDF would then avenge these deaths of their soldiers. The Sufi Sect of Islam views Jihad as an inward struggle to live a holy life. (What we as Christians would refer to as Sanctification). The best thing we can do is become educated and not be afraid to be-friend Muslims and not be afraid to proclaim the gospel. Muslims are not opposed to hearing the Gospel. In fact many Muslims have been told untruths about the doctrines of Christianity. Just keep in mind that the discussion should be free of political discourse.
HRW,
Some of uis remember the facts too about how well the British and Canadians were doing against Her Hitler. It was called Dunkirk.
We have learned that no good deed goes unpunished as your ungrateful example shows.
Joe B
I think there needs to be clarification made as to what sect of Islam is being portrayed.
While some Islamic sects are more violent, the fact remains that all sects honor a highway bandit and murderer. It is like building a religion around Charles Manson or Son of Sam.
The argument that not all Muslims are violent is like saying not all members of the Mafia or the SS or the KKK were violent. That is probably true, but what’s the point? I am sure some Nazis were perfectly friendly and civil. So is it OK to ascribe to a murderous organization as long as you are friendly? What about the organization itself?
I am not saying we should fear Muslims or treat them with disrespect. What I am trying to point out is that there is something inherently wrong with being Muslim, just as there is something inherently wrong with being a member of the KKK.
The truth is that Islam is an ideology of hatred and violence. It is modern day Naziism. All Muslims by definition subscribe to a religion of terror, regardless of what sect we are talking about.
We should treat all men with kindness and respect, but let’s stop pretending that Islam is good.
Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves.
When you have members of one faith calling another faith “evil” you lay the groundwork for religious war, which this planet has seen too much of.
hrw, the point is that without the American center and right the Netherlands would not have been liberated. Also, some American Airborne and other American forces assisted Montgomery’s Army om the left in the Netherlands during operation Market Garden.
I was responding to your nasty statement, Muslims sure to get angry easily, don’t they?… No different than Americans when they feel threated. The politics of fear work world wide.
One grows weary of your viciously anti-American views, again, especially since, using your figures, 358,101 Americans sacrificed their lives in WW II alone to defend Europe, including your Netherlands, against the totalitarian fascists.
“When you have members of one faith calling another faith “evil” you lay the groundwork for religious war, which this planet has seen too much of.” — Anlir
Very true, Anlir, but I must say that if Christians are only just now getting around to condemning Muslims as evil to start a religious war, they’re about 2000 years behind Islam.
The two faiths are really quite impossible to reconcile because of the fact that the beliefs that Christians hold are utterly morally repulsive to many Muslims - i.e., that Jesus Christ would be the Son of God. It doesn’t help much that there is that little bit in the Qu’ran about killing unbelievers.
There has been a religious war going on for the last 2000 years, and overall, with the exception of the Crusades, it’s been pretty onesided.
And before someone continues to insist that Muslims are misunderstood, that we don’t understand them, and that we need to know why they despise us so much, I ask you: with all the Muslims killing one another in Iraq and Palestine, have they ever stopped to ask, “Why do we hate us?”
Just something to think about.
Xion, I think you need to differentiate between the philosophy and the individual. I certainly do not defend the Islamic philosophy. I choose to communicate to Muslims in a way that clearly explains what Christianity is about and that Christian charity is the way I live my life and that they can also stand justified before God through the Blood of Christ. It is my job to call them to repentance and God’s job to issue the effectual call to Salvation. I would encourage you to visit Faud Mauseri’s site called “The crescent Project. He gives excellent advice on how to speak to Muslims. In fact he points out that Muslims are commanded to read and obey the New Testament. The Koran commands them to do that. Those that do like Walid Shoebat, surrender their lives to Christ and God gives them a new life in Christ.
intellectual gorgon post 35,
is it perhaps that you mean 1400 years?
I believe Islam only started in the 7th century.
Intellectual Gordon,
There are centuries of conflict between Christianity and Islam. One could debate ad infinitum as to who started what and who is more to blame. To go down that road only leads to more conflict and war.
I only know that as this world becomes more interconnected, we have to work harder to make sure the peace is kept between these two great religions. All of us have a responsibility to watch our language and work toward greater cooperation and understanding.
I do not like the uncivil, ignorant messages that Christians are giving about Islam and I don’t like the uncivil, ignorant messages that Islam is giving about Christians. Words do matter. Words, as we all know from history, moves people to action.
In regards to why Muslims are fighting each other, I gave a response to that in #20. There is no central authority, and there is a big split in the faith between Sunni and Shia.
Before we get to condemning of Muslims for fighting each other, let’s recall that Christians have also fought with each other down through the centuries. One of the most recent examples is the conflict in N. Ireland.
Joe B. #36 I always differentiate between the philosophy and the individual. As I said, perfectly friendly and civil people can be members of the KKK, but we don’t pretend that this is OK.
Anlir #33 “When you have members of one faith calling another faith “evil” you lay the groundwork for religious war”
This is not about call each other names. This is about truth. If someone told Nazis just prior to the holocaust that their ideology was evil, is that calling them names or is that merely speaking the truth?
Would you reprimand Oskar Schindler or Corrie Ten Boom for speaking against the Nazis? Islam is far worse than Naziism, because it is irrational. It is an ideology of hate that promises false rewards for unthinkable acts of terror.
Of course we should all be respectful of one another, but just what sort of dialog should we have about an ideology of hate? It sounds like your recommendation is to pretend that it doesn’t exist. That is precisely what Germans did just prior to the death of 6 million Jews.
John - 4 -
Right you are, in your post - facial expressions change dramatically too. We have many who live here, many for over 20 - 30 years. Things go well until current news become the subject, and that would naturally include the war. Some even deny that they are Muslim, trying to win confidence while at the same time adhering to Muslim practices -
We live in an area with a vast amount of Middle Eastern people - I agree with your last sentence, I don’t know how anyone could disagree with you, unless they have not been subjected to the culture on nearly a daily basis.
Anger at LA police plan to ‘map’ Muslims
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071109192330.irvcbpkl&show_article=1
Within the article are many links which might be of interest.
llama,
Dunkirk was a British operation. Very few Canadians were evacuated from Dunkirk. And I wonder at the validity of criticizing when American in 1940 was busy with war profiteering on both sides.
Solon
Correct, but all allied forces contributed to Market Garden including Canadians, Brits and Poles. And I can make the counter point that without Canada clearing the Channel ports, Americans could not have advanced into central Europe. Both needed each other. I was merely correcting your historical error when you said the Americans liberated the Netherlands. As any good Dutch kid can tell you it was Canada. BTW — I’m Canadian not Dutch, why you insist in associating me with the Netherlands I don’t know.
Using your standard of war dead in Europe no matter where the location, I should thank the Russians more since their war dead is higher than the rest combined.
Xion
Islam is a monotheistic religion which is loosely based on the Old and New Testament. If Mohammed wrote The Koran in America today he could have be
sued for plagerizing. To nazify a religion similar to your own may not be the wisest thing.
Vicotria
I’m exposed to Muslim culture on a daily basis and can vouch for its diversity in both practise, ethnicity, and political views. Labeling a religion based on the actions of a few extremist is no different than equating Westboro Baptist with the Anglican Church — ridiculous.
Xion,
The Nazi’s philosophy was/is fundamentally evil. Islam is not. Equating one to the other or saying that Islam is worse than Nazism is a prime example of incivility.
I often find that when people say “this is about truth” it’s usually a cloak for their prejudice, not truth.
HRW
Islam and Phelps is not a comparison. Phelps didn’t instigate, support, and applaud the 9-11 attack, as most of the Islamic world did.
Islam is a ‘religion’ which has been around for many years. Esau and Jacob are both fathers to the entire beginnings of the Arabs and Jews, which have come to what we are experiencing today.
There is much more history, the Arabs have been jealous of the Jews for centuries. None of this should surprise anyone who understand and has studied the Word of God -
#42 HRW “To nazify a religion similar to your own may not be the wisest thing.”
Moral equivalence is not an argument. It is an attempt to avoid an argument by attacking the argument itself. All fun and games of course, but entirely misses the point.
#43 Anlir “The Nazi’s philosophy was/is fundamentally evil. Islam is not.
Finally you admit that evil exists! Whew, that was a lot of work just to get to square one!
Here is the root of the issue. You believe that Islam is not evil, but that Naziism is. So then, what would it take to convince you that Islam is worse than Naziism?
Would reading Muhammad’s actual words convince you? Would citing endless statistics about the ideology behind nearly every conflict in the world today convince you? Would listening to sermons by Imam’s in your own neighborhood convince you? Have you heard what Muslim children are being taught about the Jews around the world?
Just what would it take?
Note: My purpose here is not to convince Muslims of the evils of their religion. To do so would put them in jeopardy, since leaving Islam is a capitol offense. (You do realize that, right?)
My concern is that there is a mass ignorance about a worldwide threat. I am not worried of course, since I believe all things are in God’s hands. But being a student of history I am fascinated by the mass ignorance and voluntary censorship that preceded so many atrocities throughout history.
There have been 9953 Islamic attacks around the world since 9/11. These attacks can be traced to an ideology of terror. Yet so many people are oblivious to such things. To them, these 9953 attacks were perpetrated by people who just happened to belong to the religion of peace. I would like to help these people, but they are a stubborn lot.
I have been married to a man of Sunni Islam upbringing for 23 years. He is a nice guy on most subjects and even goes to church with me. However, mention Israel or George Bush to him, he goes ballistic. I bet if you ask most Muslims in this country about those things, you will get the same reactions as above. It is just so extremely ingrained in their worldview.