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Gays in Iran
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Baptists in North Carolina may call on homosexuals to repent, but in Iran …
Homosexuals deserve to be executed or tortured and possibly both, an Iranian leader told British MPs during a private meeting at a peace conference, The Times has learnt.
Mohsen Yahyavi is the highest-ranked politician to admit that Iran believes in the death penalty for homosexuality after a spate of reports that gay youths were being hanged.
HT: Hugh Hewitt
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One more diversion
The Jewish Torah teaches the same thing (minus the torture part). It’s part of the Mosaic Law
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
The Christian Bible also contains the same passage in the Old Testament, as the Old Testament is the same as the Jewish Torah. Again, it’s part of the Mosaic Law, and there’s no passage in the New Testament which repeals it. In fact, Jesus said he came not to abolish The Law, and that heaven and earth shall pass away before the Law passes away.
Fortunately, there are no gays in Iran, at least according to Ahmedinejad, and he should know, right?
On second thought, maybe that’s *why* there are none.
Yes, those of us in the gay community are well aware of the tragic fate of gays in countries like Iran and Iraq. How we wish our Christian brethren would speak out loudly and clearly about this cruel and inhumane practice. We’ve gotten some liberal Christians to speak out. But the conservatives have been very quiet. It’s disappointing and shameful.
Oddly enough, though, trannies in Iran have the blessing of the Ayatollahs, who say changing your gender is a fundamental human right.
http://tinyurl.com/5pb7y
But the conservatives have been very quiet. It’s disappointing and shameful.
Well, what do you expect, when the command to execute homosexuals is in their very own holy book, and they say it was directly inspired by God? They’re kind of between a rock and a hard place. Jesus wants them to be nice to everybody, but Jehovah wants homosexuals executed.
Maybe I’m really naive, but the only person I ever heard advocating killing homosexuals (besides Muslims)is that Phelps nut, and I personally don’t consider him a Christian. And I’ve heard a number of the Christians I know criticizing the Muslims in this regard. They have some other problems too, like how they treat women. In regard to “trannies”, I’ll bet only the men have the right to change genders.
You’re wrong, Janie. Women are allowed to change genders, too, in Iran. I read recently that the Iranian government even pays for sex change ops these days.
And Phelps certainly knows his Bible better than most Christians, at least on this issue. Jehovah said homosexuals should be executed. Period. Phelps can’t help it that’s in the Bible, no matter how much it embarrasses most Christians. It’s in there, so he believes it. Can you show me where Jesus repealed this particular Law of God?
Just one more example of how islamic extremeists are like evangelicals, only more so
er “extremists”
My guess is that there are plenty of WorldMag readers out there who would say it’s cruel and inhumane to execute gays. We just gotta get the leaders of conservative Christianity to speak up loudly and clearly. I’m not sure what one can do to change their hearts.
Well, by saying so, they’ll be admitting that they worship a cruel and inhumane and/or schizophrenic god. Because their god commanded the execution of homosexuals. If it’s cruel and inhumane now, it was cruel and inhumane then.
Jesus wouldn’t pick up a stone. To the homosexual He would say, “Go and sin no more.” And then He would be soundly condemned for inferring that homosexuality is sinful.
I have never heard a Christian suggest that homosexuals should be stoned - ever. Fred Phelps is a disgrace to the “faith.” Sure he knows the Bible. So does the devil. The scriptures can be mis-used to rationalize anything.
This whole line of comment is specious. Mosaic law was meant for the ancient Hebrews, and nobody else. It symbolically points out the existence of sin for Christians, but they are no more required to stone gays than they are to keep kosher.
Yes, just as you’re misusing If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them to rationalize that the god of the Bible opposes the execution of homosexuals. The fact that “the devil” or whoever knows the scriptures doesn’t change the scriptures. God, in his word (according to Christians and Jews) commands the execution of homosexuals.
John, where does the god of the Bible say anything like “Hey, I was just symbolizin’ with that kill the homosexuals stuff. That was then, this is now, so it’s time to chill. I now hereby repeal my command to execute homosexuals”?
Can you point me to the passage where God changes his mind?
I guess this can be used as proof that being homosexual is not a choice. I mean if I were doing something that I knew I would be put to death for I would choose not to do it. If these people are willing to risk death to be with who they love there has to be more to it than “choice”.
Night Train is just trying to get us off track.
This story shows that the Muslims keep the letter of the Law. The story below about the Baptists shows how Christians keep the spirit of the Law, a difference people like Night Train cannot understand.
The natural man (i.e. Night Train) knows not the things of God, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (according to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments).
Jesus came to complete the law and offer the way of grace (through his death on the cross). As He told the adultress (who had committed a sexual sin, just as the homosexuals commit), “Go and sin no more.”
The Koran does not offer grace like Jesus offered.
Even I, as a non-Christian gay, wouldn’t put Muslims in the same boat at Christians on this issue. If I were giving out letter grades, here’s how it would go:
F- - Fundamentalist Muslims
F - Rev. Phelps
F+ - Fundamentalist Christians (Dobsonites, etc.)
D - Evangelical Christians, reformed Muslims
C - Mainline Christians, liberal Muslims
B - Progressive Christians
A - None of y’all
It’s not a report card to be proud of, that’s for certain. For “conduct”, all of y’all would get a “N.I.” for “needs improvement”.
“where does the god of the Bible say anything like “Hey, I was just symbolizin”
Nowhere. I do not claim that the Bible requires no interpretation.
“Can you point me to the passage where God changes his mind”
Many, but as one example: Jesus (Who is God) is asked to visit the house of the centurion to heal his daughter (Matt. 8), and he does. No evidence that he was planning to go there anyway.
Even if there were no textual examples, we are told to pray for what we want, which implies that it’s possible to change God’s mind.
By the way, there are some fine people to be found in just about every group. (Except for Rev. Phelps - he’s a special case). Some good people are on here every day.
Anlir, I think you need to read my post again. Besides that I have a stepbrother who is gay and a very good friend who is a lesbian. I think I have been on your side more often than not. Two of the people in my church who started the parish nursing program are a couple. Now, I admit I haven’t been out marching for gay rights or anything, but I truly do believe what you do in your bedroom is none of my business and I certainly won’t share the details of Chloe, Callie, and me. (they could solve that insomnia problem I have been having:)
Absolute barbarism. I wish there was more we could do to combat this. Invading, nation-building, attempting to establish liberal democracy among illiberal peoples doesn’t work, alas.
Once again, people who do not know the Bible feel compelled to lecture us on what it means.
#1 “it’s part of the Mosaic Law, and there’s no passage in the New Testament which repeals it.”
Wrong! The entire book of Galatians and Romans repeals the law. Paul chastises people for holding to the law! Paul says let them be accursed. (Gal 1:9) If you are under the law you are fallen from grace and you are accursed. (Gal 5:4)
Jesus said he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. The law was merely a teaching tool about the Messiah. (Gal 3:24) Once he fulfilled it, there was no more need for the teaching tool. (Gal 3:25) The law was always intended to be temporary until Christ came. (Gal 3:19,25) That was the plan.
So why then did the law prescribe the death penalty for all sorts of sins? Because that was its entire purpose, to show we are all sinners worthy of death. Read Romans chapter 3. Homosexuals are no more worthy of death than anyone.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The purpose of the law was to put the death penalty on us all. Why? Because we are all under Adam’s sin. No homosexual is any more worthy of death than every last one of us. We’re all in the same boat.
Grace would have no meaning without this judgment hanging over our heads. We deserved death, yet the righteous Judge has died in our place and bequeathed his entire inheritance to us. That is the meaning of grace — kindness to the undeserving.
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Rom 3:23,24
Mock all you want, but God is not mocked. You bite the hand that loves you. God’ pardons you freely. The downfall of homosexuals is not their sin, but their stubborn refusal to admit that it is sin. Jesus has the same answer for all sin regardless of what kind it is. But there is no help for those who won’t be helped.
there are plenty of WorldMag readers out there who would say it’s cruel and inhumane to execute gays. . . — Anlir
How difficult would it be for WorldMag readers to acquiesce in the execution or imprisonment of gays? God has “given them up” to their depravity. The New Testament doesn’t express such categorical abandonment by God of any other group of sinners. Homosexuality in Paul’s mind is a kind of idolatry whose rejection of known truth cascades fatefully into shameful, indecent, degraded, unnatural, shameful, perverted, and death-deserving crime. The unique abomination of homosexuality actually inflicts its own punishment on homosexuals’ own persons. God has given them up, so why keep them around?
Oh yes, homosexuals themselves, says Paul, know they deserve death.
after watching my neighbor’s male dog hump my other neighbor’s male dog i realized that none of you anti-homosexual-vis-a-vis-god’s-law knew what the heck you were talking about.
tell me, is man dog on man dog action anti-biblical? is it the result of the fall? is it an intentional part of creation? or you all just as full of it as one can get crammed?
Why do homosexual minions hang out at a Christian web site? I think there are two reasons. One is to torment Christians with whom they disagree. Another might be to try to enlighten us.
The root problem is that for some reason many Christians feel compelled to make homosexuality a political issue. They preach a gospel of works, telling unbelievers to sin a little less and trying to establish laws to that effect.
But God does not need us to make laws to help him out. These Christians are missing the fact that we are all under sin. They are sinners who go around shaking their fingers at sinners.
There is only one answer for sin. And sinning less ain’t it. The only answer for sin is what Jesus did on the cross. And this applies to us all. Why single out one sin more than others?
The problem in Iran has nothing to do with Christians and everything to do with a maniacal dictator who presides over a state governed by a religion of hate. So stop with the moral equivalence already!
Xion — I think you are whitewashing St. Paul’s judgement of homosexuality. But I can’t blame you — it’s unique. Evangelicals know that St. Paul says homosexuality is bad. What they don’t realize is how hard Paul’s teaching really is. Homosexuality is the worst sin, nearly if not actually unpardonable, according to Romans 1. Paul could not be more clear that “God has given them up” to the destructive consequences of their unnatural perversity. There are a few Christian theologians, not many, who have the mental fortitude to confront the scope of Paul’s language in Romans 1. Whether or not homosexuals are “more deserving” of death than other kinds of sinners, God has abandoned them to death, because homosexuality is uniquely “:unnatural.”
Night Train - Paul (f/k/a Saul or Tarsus) wrote as to one audience about various things - including homosexuality - being wrong, but that some of the audeince had been turned from those things. If the homosexuals had been executed, then they wouldn’t have been around to turn from that behavior or be reading the letter to them.
Christ offered forgiveness for sins to those who would repent.
Kim,
Don’t worry - I consider you one of the good people on here.
I think Kim put it rather well. For most people — i.e. those who aren’t on little Britain — being gay is not a choice. Whether or not it’s due to genetic factors, environment, or some combination of the two is irrelevant to any moral discussion.
1. In a democratic republic, public policy is (and should be) decided by public reasons, not private values.
2. The Church is never commanded to chastise the sinfulness of the world. Rather, it is constantly being commanded to correct flaws in its own members.
In Iran “Homosexuals deserve to be executed or tortured and possibly both”
Iran would prefer to see us all dead and they are doing their darnedest to make sure that happens. We’re in this together.
Anlir [19]: In your mind, what is the difference between a Fundamentalist Christian and an Evangelical Christian? Also, what is a Progressive Christian?
Hey let’s not go “gaying this thread”
Too late for that.
In the west we as Christians in a democracy have to tolerate much of what we may not approve of: casino gambling, magazine racks glutted with women displaying their bosoms, liquor stores and restaurants plying liquor on every street corner, underage sex, underage liquor consumption etc.
But there are ministries in the US who exist to help men and women escape their bondage to this or any sexual sin/lifestyle. I’ve not heard of a muslim ministry dedicated to helping muslim men and women struggling against the grip of homosexuality.
Finally, as others have or will point out the Old Testament Law was draconian and merciless. An entire litany of offenses meant the offender was under the sentence of death. I know my own sins and for them I deserve only death.
But I thank God that He himself came to earth and took upon himself my offenses, endured a cruel death on my behalf.
Islam and most of modern Judaism deny the concept of original sin. If sin didnt enter manking through the deliberate act of one man, it follows that there would be no need for one man to forever destroy the power of sin.
#1: he came not to abolish The Law, and that heaven and earth shall pass away before the Law passes away.
See, there is someone that believes in these “words” from a “mystical” source. This same text talks about “magical” creation and “Noah’s Ark”.
My favorite Bible myth: A supernatural creature that may or may not have had bird wings magically appeared before an underage, unmarried girl who had been impregnated by an invisible supernatural being. He told her that a wicked king has learned, also through mysticism, that a new king would be born and that she must run away. The wicked king ordered his soldiers, who presumably lived in the area with families of their own, to kill every baby in the area. They did so without protest, possibly even killing their own children or children of family members. The girl ran to another town in another country where she gave birth in a barn. Three really smart guys learned, also through supernatural means, that a magical baby would be born. They followed a mysterious light that no one else followed, not even the evil king, to where the baby was born. Somehow, they figured out which barn the baby was in. There, they gave it things that smelled good, perfume and stuff and then presumably went back home and were never heard from again. The story kind of stops here for a number of years.
So, from a book, which has these kinds of stories, people believe it’s ok to kill their children? Go figure. This is why we need protections from the religious.
Many have made reference to the Levitical law against homosexuality. Its there for anyone to read and understand.
But to infer from that that modern day Israel and the Jews who live in and defend it are hostile to homosexuality? No one here has heard of the performer Dana International??
And oddly enough, the only parts of the Palestinian and Israeli societies which seem to get along are their respective homosexual subcultures. Still, even among secularized progressive PLO types, hooking up with a Hebrew homo can be a source of much familial animosity.
Saw a great bumper sticker the other day: Torture is not a family value. But if it’s true for Iranians, it has to be true for everyone.
Oh, RDEAN, you’re “right”! Why couldn’t I have seen how “ridiculous” my “religious” “beliefs” were? Maybe one day I’ll “truly” understand. Until then, I’ll have to rely on your “wisdom”.
Yeah! Where’s RDean’s church? Let’s all don our sunday go to meetin’ threads and go there this Lord’s Day!
Apparently, the mystical being can see you from anywhere, kind of like the Claus. You don’t need a “church”.
The questions, “Did I misrepresent the story?” “Is it factually correct?” “Does it sound “ridiculous” to you?”
What I find amusing about most of our atheist’s arguments is that they were all brought up by other people around 500 AD, and refuted by the early church fathers around 501 AD.
Old news.
There is nothing new under the sun. Vanity vanity, all is vanity.
Love God and keep His commandments. For this is man’s all.
Heh. Sorry, but this is just plain amusing. From Rdean/Donato’s juvenile taunts (which he’s pasted in exactly the same form several times already) to arguing covenantal theology with someone (Night Train/Happy Jack) who believes humans are the result of genetic manipulation performed on apes by a race of aliens from the planet Niburu that passes our way only ever 3.600 years.
Cheered,
SG
501 AD?? That’s like before “everything”. I’m suprised you “lower” yourself to use a computer. Is a computer “magic”?
Yeah, you tell ‘em, Rdean. Explain how you don’t know much of anything
important that happened in intellectual history till sometime just a few years ago. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Cicero, Tacitus, Plutarch, Marcus Aurelius, Augustine … Those “primitives” are hardly ever mentioned on cable tv, and certainly weren’t informed by it. They didn’t even have bumpers to stick their logic to {:~)
The important point is that the American Constitution has a clear provision that does not allow cruel and unusual punishment, which stoning certainly is. No Christian Congressman , nor for that matter anyone on this blog , has ever called for capital punishment of homosexuals. Evangelicaland orthodox Christians support and abide by the Constitution.
One of the gay militants favorite though quite mistaken games is to equate Christians with the Islamics on the subject of homosexuality. There is much rational and biblical warrant for regarding unrepentant homosexual behavior as sinful without confusing this with stoning and execution of homosexuals.
Peter Leavitt
The proscription against homosexual behavior and its punishment cited in Leviticus, and all the rest of the laws enumerated in Torah, are explicitly addressed to the Hebrew tribes that followed Moses out of Egypt and were to occupy the land promised to Abraham’s descendents. Obedience to that covenant was to mark God’s people as His chosen ones. Unless Night Train stood on Mt Gerizim or Mt Ebal to invoke the curses and blessings of God for abrogating or following His covenant with those people, this law doesn not compel him or us to explicit obedience to all its minutiae. Actually reading the entire text can lead to no other conclusion.
Further reading reveals that Jesus ushered in a new covenant that did not require obedience to all Old Testament Law. Acts 15 describes the earliest church council in which the specific laws that would still bind Christianss are enumerated. Stoning people for homosexual actions are not included.
#46: anything
important that happened in intellectual history
Intellectual History? You mean like “Jonah and the Whale”, “Noah’s Ark”, “Adam and Eve”, “The Nativity myth”, “Samson”, “the Garden of Eden” and all those other Bible stories? These are “intelliectual”? Come on now. Get serious.
#47: There is much rational and biblical warrant for regarding unrepentant homosexual behavior as sinful without confusing this with stoning and execution of homosexuals
Except that stoning and execution is a very credible “cure”. Right???? Wouldn’t you agree, just a little????
No Christian Congressman , nor for that matter anyone on this blog , has ever called for capital punishment of homosexuals. — Solon
Plenty of them would like to condemn homosexuals to 4 years at hard labor, breaking up stones if not being broken by them, and complained when the Supreme Court said sodomy laws are unconstitutional.
While it is true that the constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishments, contemporary standards do not consider execution to be cruel and unusual punishment, and who knows, if we all get back to believing the Bible, we might come to the realization that it would be wicked NOT to stone to death homosexuals.
Somehow, I imagine Scalia and Thomas, who dissented in Lawrence v. Texas, and Roberts and Alito, who joined the court after that case, would rule that stoning homosexuals is a matter of states rights.
But Solon, nobody is saying evangelicals would pick up stones as vigilantes.
Evengelical’s damage to this country by way of what they try to do to science is light years ahead of any damage the gays have done to the country.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_3_novabrjudgmentday_2007-11-14
What’s funny is that the majority of Americans are Christian. That means the majority of gays come from Christian families. They hate their own. Too bad.
The important point is that the American Constitution has a clear provision that does not allow cruel and unusual punishment, which stoning certainly is. No Christian Congressman , nor for that matter anyone on this blog , has ever called for capital punishment of homosexuals.
The fact remains that, in the era when Christianity arguably had its strongest influence on America, at its founding, every single one of the 13 existing states had the death penalty for homosexuality on their books.
“The fact remains that, in the era when The Enlightenment arguably had its strongest influence on America…blah blah blah”
Feel free to fill in the blank with a knack for wearing knickers or bad teeth and bad breath or even the slave trade, but don’t begin to pretend that this comprises a credible argument that New Testament Christianity supports executing homosexuals.
So, Serious George, where did the founders get the idea that homosexuals should be executed? You seem certain it wasn’t from the Bible. So tell us where they got it.
If abortion is a matter of states rights — then why not the stoning of homosexuals. Think about it , , , but don’t jump to quick conclusions! I know what you want think: if we allow abortion, there’s nothing to stop the killing of homosexuals, so we need to terminate the right to abortion in order to protect all humans. But, no. The “baby” is the universality of our rights. Abortion is the bathwater. If life and death are beyond the scope of the constitution, then our key document loses it’s relevance. Whether or not you agree with Roe v. Wade, you must recognize that moral issues are constitutional issues, not a local option.
Well, our Founding Fathers certainly thought executing homosexuals was constitutional, since every one of the 13 original colonies mandated capital punishment for sodomy when the Constitution was signed.
But this had nothing at all to do with the Biblical capital punishment for homosexuality!
Nothing at all!
I repeat, it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Bible prescribing the death penalty for sodomy!
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
We just have to trust the Lord that He had reasons for putting things in the Bible that He did. Do we just make up what we think is just? That’s what’s happening now. And there are 18 different sins in the bible that deserve the death penalty.
And what wife wouldn’t go for a philandering husband to be executed? I know there are plenty of even non-Christian women who would go for that one. They joke about it all the time in society - why? Because instinctively they know that adultery is death-deserving. What - do we leave the guy alive to philander more - spread illness and fatherless children and impoverished mothers?
As Rushdoony said, when the criminal lives, society dies. When the criminal dies, society lives.
Of course David didn’t get the death penalty, but he was punished in other ways by the sword never leaving his house.
#59: He had reasons for putting things in the Bible that He did.
The Bible was written by PEOPLE. It’s a collection of letters and stories. It was NOT written by God. You people lie, lie, lie. It’s just wrong.
Are you calling Bianca a liar, Rdean?
#61: Are you calling Bianca a liar, Rdean?
#59: He had reasons for putting things in the Bible that He did.
Depends. Which part of the Bible was written by God? Did he hold a pen or just magically make the letters appear on the page?
Your stuff is getting as juvenile as qwerty’s was.
Take care,
SG