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I’m from Bulgaria and still learning more about English language usage. Impressed by one of the presidential hopefuls I told my cousin, “This boy, Obama, is the best orator of them all.” She looked at me with fear and explained that it was dangerous to call a black man “boy,” since slave owners had used that term for their male slaves in the nineteenth century. It did not matter that I was not a slave-owner or that Obama had never been a slave.
Maybe you have to be an outsider to be surprised at such sensitivity, but I should point out that the world knows about slavery and segregation in America. It will benefit America to learn the history of the world. Other nations have had much worse for many more centuries and they do not brood on the past as much. In just a few years after gaining freedom from Turkey in 1878, the Bulgarians got over centuries of their children being taken from their families to be forcefully converted to Islam. These “enichari” were trained as soldiers of the sultan to be sent back to their native villages to continue murdering the fathers, raping the mothers, and taking even more Bulgarian children as government taxation.
We have to remember the evils of the past so we do not relive its horrors. And we are to mourn the victims. But unless people forgive, really forgive, and move on, they will keep bickering over their segregated past long after the Tutsi and Bhutto have found harmony in Rwanda. And Martin Luther King’s dream will never come true. Call me a wishful thinker but I have seen many Christians of racial and ethnic minorities who are now free to love their neighbors regardless of melanin content. God has more power than history. He can heal any pain, ancestral or personal.
I want to see the end of the American racial divisions but I don’t want to have to consult the current politically correct dictionary. I do not intend to feel uncomfortable because of the color of my skin or the shape of my skull. I will make every effort to judge people solely on character, just as Martin Luther King preached.
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A matter of life
Many of us said much the same thing the other day, and were suspicioned to be racist pigs….
As a white Southerner who has lived under almost constant condemnation for something I didn’t do all of my life, I know you have a limited list of options. One: Apologize over and over; deny your heritage even the good part of it. Become a mega liberal so they will know you are really, really sorry. Two: Become defensive and rationalized all the bad or pretend it didn’t happen. If you are going to get called a racist anyway, earn it and have a little fun with it. Three: get over it and prepare for a bad reaction when you tell others to do the same. Four: Admit that nobody is perfect, everybody sins and everybody is a child of God deserving respect regardless of the color of their skin, the thickness of their accent or the actions of their ancestors. I am working on four, but I have my two and three days, because I’m not perfect.
You have one other option, KBells: Don’t call black men “boy” and then say they should just get over it.
The author speaks of “political correctness.” But what’s really at issue here is respect. If you know that black men don’t generally like being called “boy,” and you know why, then why do it?
There is a ridiculous extreme to political correctness, such as calling disabled people “differently abled.” But avoiding overtly racist terms is nowhere close to that extreme.
Alex Tokarev didn’t know the term was offensive. Now he does, and his options are (1) Recognize it and don’t use the term, since his intention is not to be racist; or (2) write a defensive post arguing that it should be ok to use the word because he didn’t own slaves and besides other people have had it bad too.
I don’t, but I have better things to do than to try and keep up with current acceptable euphemisms that will change in a couple of years.
By the way I have gotten over being called, hillbilly, hick, cracker and racist.
You have one other option, KBells: Don’t call black men “boy” and then say they should just get over it
That’s really not the issue here. It was just a way of introducing the issue, which is that black Americans aren’t the only ones who’ve suffered in the world, and that many other groups who suffered horrible things don’t keep dwelling on them, and using them as excuses for horrendous rates of crime, an appalling illegitimacy rate of 70%, etc.
Just how many white people run around referring to black men as “boy” these days?
The biggest cause of black America’s problems are its 70% illegitimacy rate. Not “racism”. And the biggest cause of friction between the races, white flight, etc., is the wildly disproportionate rates of black crime. And the vicious nature of much of it. Just yesterday the Dallas Morning News had a story about a woman standing at a bus stop in overwhelmingly black South Dallas. A man came up to her and pulled a gun and said “I’m robbing you, b*tch”, and demanded her money and jewelry. After handing it all over, she was told to kneel down. When she did, he poured lighter fluid on her neck and set her on fire.
http://snipurl.com/22dal
If you want to improve race relations, work on reducing the number of crimes like this we read about day in and day out.
Neither of these problems are due to slavery or segregation, let alone “racism”. They are entirely self inflicted.
It is impossible to know what everybody you meet will find offensive. One of the people who called me a cracker objected to my using the term Eskimo. I didn’t know it was offensive. They use it on kid’s shows. So, it became a joke around work that whenever someone forgot and said Eskimo, we would say, “That’s Inuit you dumb cracker.”
Night Train: I actually agree with you on this. The black community has to take responsibility for its own actions.
And I also agree that the inadvertent use of a potentially offensive term shouldn’t be a big deal.
But it isn’t a universal thing. I am white but I live in a predominantly black area. There is crime here, but it’s not a serious problem, and it’s because the people around me are mostly educated, employed, ethical and if not affluent, at least self-sufficient.
So I still argue that the crime problem isn’t about race, it’s about class and culture. I made my crack about your washing your sheet the other day because you seem to see this as an issue of skin color. “Black” crime is also about poor people enticed into envy by consumerism coupled with those pockets of culture where violence is respected.
That is, if you can’t afford the expensive sneakers that the ads and your peers tell you you must have, and you run in a circle where you’ll get your props if you steal the money and hurt somebody while doing so, that’s what you’ll probably do. If you have the money to buy them, you’ll just buy them. And even if you don’t, if you run in a circle where crime is frowned on, you’ll probably learn to live without the shoes.
The race of the people is just an obviously visible characteristic to latch on to. It’s not the actual cause of anything. You get accused of being a racist because you talk about these issues in terms of race, and don’t seem to acknowledge the other factors that are much more directly causative.
No, I don’t talk about these issues in terms of race. I simply point out the facts, which are that blacks commit a wildly disproportionate share of crimes, especially violent crimes. I’m not making this up. It’s indisputable. I’ve never said it’s BECAUSE they’re black that blacks are committing such a horrendously disproportionate share of the crime. I’ve simply said that it’s black people doing it. And until that changes, race relations aren’t going to improve much.
So taking a baseball bat to a guy pumping gas, like in Orlando the other day, is a symptom of poverty?
So kidnapping and killing that Auburn coed the other day was a symptom of poverty?
So setting that woman on fire at the Dallas bus stop was a symptom of poverty?
Did I say poverty?
No.
I said poverty PLUS envy PLUS a culture that encourages and supports violence and theft.
I think relatively few people turn to violent crime without all three of those factors present. Poverty alone won’t do it in the presence of a good value system and a willingness to be content with what you have. Poverty plus envy won’t do it in the presence of a good value system.
I suppose envy plus a bad culture, or poverty plus a bad culture might be enough. But poverty alone, no.
I said poverty PLUS envy PLUS a culture that encourages and supports violence and theft.
Culture? What’s that? It’s just a euphemism for the way a particular people behave. You’re saying that poor black people encourage each other in these brutal, senseless attacks. Them and Madison Avenue.
Steve, the average white person in America isn’t interested in “why” so many blacks commit these types of crimes, and your rationalizations aren’t going to make them say “oh well, it’s the culture, so I don’t care if I get shot”. They just want it to stop. They don’t want egghead liberals telling them that the fact that so much crime is committed by blacks doesn’t matter, because a lot of them are poor, or hang around the wrong crowd, or watch too many sneaker commercials. They just don’t want to get shot.
Well you go right ahead and try to solve a problem without understanding why it exists in the first place. Good luck.
You keep claiming the problem doesn’t exist, while at the same time rationalizing/justifying/ excusing the behavior.
Do you just make up conversations in your head?
I NEVER said the problem doesn’t exist.
And how in the world do you equate trying to understand the reasons for a problem with “excusing” it? That is idiotic. YOU CANNOT SOLVE A PROBLEM YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND!
The first step in solving ANYTHING is to define what it is you’re trying to solve. When you go to the doctor, he doesn’t just give you a dozen prescriptions to see if one works, he diagnoses the condition first.
I point to socioeconomic and cultural issues that contribute to violent crime. That is IN NO WAY a rationalization, justification or excuse. It is a diagnosis, or at least an attempt at one. You cannot figure out a cure until you know what it is that needs curing.
That is not complicated, but it seems to be too complex a thought for you to grasp.
But for preachers like Rev. Wright and Louis Farrakhan and hustlers like Al Sharpton who are all deeply invested in keeping anger alive, American blacks (like many other groups in the world who suffered from injustice) would be much farther down the road in the “moving on” process.
I volunteer every summer at a Christian summer camp that seeks to include inner city minority kids in the program. I was teaching a junior high class and our topic had to do with heaven and the Christian hope for eternal life. To make it interesting and not just lecture and quote verses, I brought my guitar to sing some beloved negro spirituals to help make the point. I have done this many times as a guest for young Asian students in a\their “English for Foreign Language Speakers” classes, to wonderful and respectful receptions.
I thought I had all the “sensitivities” down, but in my camp class, as soon as I referred to my song as a “negro spiritual,” those junior high inner city kids went ballistic as if I was some clueless adult white racist. I am normally a fine teacher who keeps the interest and respect of any audience I teach, but I lost those kids as they began to disrespectfully fire racially charged accusations at me for being disrespectful of them–which of course I wasn’t. Of course, I thought of the term “negro spiritual” as a description of an American musical genre. They had no idea how to even hear my explanation.
They had been well taught to be ready at the drop of a dime to be angry at a white man’s perceived racism.
Hatemonger.
Joel Mark - 15
Much has transpired in the past months that have uncovered ‘teachings’ within the black Church which weren’t widely known until recently. The anger, the intense racism, which now has been exposed has left many Americans stunned.
Wright was very involved in the ‘Million Man March’ with Farrakhan. Everyone knows who Farrakhan is and what he stands for. After watching endless footage of Wright’s ’statements’ and ‘comments’ and Obama’s statement he never ‘heard these things’?
The reports, by blacks that many, many black Churches preach the sort of thing that Wright preaches?
And we wonder why there is such animosity towards the white race? They have been taught racism.
Great comments all of you.
I’d also like to add, that racism thrives when people ignore/reject the Creator who displayed His creativity in making us so many different shades and sizes.
Offense also thrives where there is a lack of love. In 1 Corinthians 13:4 and 5; God said ‘…love does not envy…is not provoked…’
I was guilty of this when I first came to America. A co-worker kept calling me ‘girl’. I was SO offended. But as I got to know her, I realised she didn’t mean to be demeaning. She was really nice to me, and we became good friends. I never told her how it offended me. I just decided that Americans have a different way of speaking, and to learn to love them anyway. Because of God’s love and grace for me, I can extend it to others.
JOANNEB wrote: “…racism thrives when people ignore/reject the Creator who displayed His creativity in making us so many different shades and sizes.”
That’s a fantastic point! Thanks (I almost wrote; “Thanks, girl” but decided not to — SMILE — Just an e-humor attempt).
Seriously, great point.
When you get my age, occasionally being called a girl is a compliment.
Night Train at #13: You keep claiming the problem doesn’t exist, while at the same time rationalizing/justifying/ excusing the behavior.
So what do you think the cause is? You insist you’re not saying it’s because they’re black, but you reject and ridicule the combination of factors I suggested.
So why do you think the problem exists?
1492, Columbus discovered the “New World”, new for the Europeans.
1776 is the Date of the Declaration of Independence.
President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, but many count the real date to the end of slavery when the war ended in 1865.
So far, Europeans have been in America until shortly after 1492. That’s close to 373 years of “official” slavery.
Jim Crowe laws against the blacks were official until 1965.
From a newspaper: Alabama voters in 2000 repealed the state’s century-old ban against interracial marriage, an unenforceable but embarrassing throwback to the state’s segregationist past. The vote removed the dubious distinction of Alabama being the only state in the country with such a relic from the segregated South remaining in its constitution.
That means that out of the 224 years this nation was officially a nation, raced based laws existed in at least one state, except for less than 8 years.
According to many of this site, blacks are being “racist” for continuing to “harp” on mistreatment that occurred far in the past.
I just wanted to point that out.
You can go back to debating whether it’s appropriate to call Mr. Obama a “boy”.
The enichari sound a lot like the “janissaries” of earlier crusades who were converted and then sent back to kill their parents!
Steveg asked, “So why do you think the problem exists?”
Start with the preaching of men like Rev. Wright who are invested in keeping anger alive and in selectively cherry-picking history to grind grudges deeper into the hearts of men.
It’s not that simple, but that is a realistic place to start.
Rdean - Race based laws are still one the books and being eacted all the time (except now they discriminate against Caucasians, and sometiimes Asians - so they are apparently OK with a lot of people).
Joel Mark: Except it turns out Rev. Wright doesn’t really preach that. The selective cherry-picking happened when the news media excerpted small snippets of his sermons out of context to distort what he’s about.
There are a number of longer excerpts up on YouTube now, including this one that shows the full context of the “America’s chickens are coming home to roost” clip … turns out, he was quoting someone else in order to argue for non-violence.
There are more that don’t include the controversial clips but show better what he’s about. If you click the link above, you’ll see some of those others in the “related videos” column to the right.
Joel Mark: Start with the preaching of men like Rev. Wright who are invested in keeping anger alive and in selectively cherry-picking history to grind grudges deeper into the hearts of men.
And in addition to #27, the only way that would be relevant would be if you could show that any significant amount of black-on-white crime is racially motivated … and not just a case of predatory young men picking what they perceive to be easy prey.
23 - RDEAN wrote; “According to many of this site, blacks are being “racist” for continuing to ‘harp’ on mistreatment that occurred far in the past.”
Wrong RDEAN. Racism is when people hate others for the color of their skin and the way Rev. Wright used the term “white people” to generate anger and resentment was racist.
Whoever did the mistreating of people in history is guilty. Whatever justice they did not get on earth, God can handle. But I’m not guilty just because my skin matches the color of someone unrelated to me who can be cited in history (or elsewhere in the country) who did a bad thing. People of all races have done horrific things. People of all races have done wonderful things. Give blame and credit to whom it is due, not to races.
As Alex Tokarev wrote in the original post; “Other nations have had much worse for many more centuries and they do not brood on the past as much.”
And to state or imply that the mistreatment of some people by others in history is cause for isolating a group today for targeted hatred and resentment just because they have the same skin color is racist.
RDEAN wrote; “That means that out of the 224 years this nation was officially a nation, raced based laws existed in at least one state, except for less than 8 years.”
You are simply blathering selectively twisted contrived statistics. The human story cannot be told with statistics, especially ones made up by RDEAN.
Our nation’s history is a big mixed bag. Blacks suffered more than any other group in America (but probably NOT more than most blacks who stayed in Africa and certainly not more than most blacks who lived in Africa for the last generation. Efforts to fix the injustices also abound in our history from the Puritans and Quakers on down.
But it does not fix a thing to grind distorted grievances and stay angry at people with lighter skin on the pretext of historical cherry-picking.
I admire anyone who contends for genuine human justice today (regardless of their color) but not anyone who wallows in a need for impossible revenge on the ‘perceived’ ancestors of people who are long gone. That only begats more injustice.
Steveg wrote; “Joel Mark: Except it turns out Rev. Wright doesn’t really preach that.”
Your head and heart are both in the sand, Steve.
Even Barack Obama condemned the damaging preaching of Rev. Wright in explicit terms. I commend him for that.
Others have reported that the comments we heard are not mitigated by the context of the sermons and that this is not unique in many black churches. I hope that is wrong.
I stand by the point that Rev. Wright is a huge part of the problem and will add that so are the genuine white racists who are also still out there in numbers unknown to me making the problem worse.
Many Americans, me included, want to believe America is the best country ever created. We want to believe America is the best it can be.
Several times, you have said, wait, let me use your words, “but probably NOT more than most blacks who stayed in Africa and certainly not more than most blacks who lived in Africa for the last generation” and a quote you make, “Other nations have had much worse”.
When it comes to discrimination in this country, I don’t care that it’s “worse” in other countries. We make our own standard, not live down to others low standards. You can, but not me. I believe if you are a citizen and have broken no laws, you should get equal rights. Obviously, I am not a Christian since the majority of them approve of discrimination against our American brothers and sisters.
#26: except now they discriminate against Caucasians
Who even knows what you are talking about?
Joel Mark at #29: Whoever did the mistreating of people in history is guilty. Whatever justice they did not get on earth, God can handle. But I’m not guilty just because my skin matches the color of someone unrelated to me who can be cited in history (or elsewhere in the country) who did a bad thing. People of all races have done horrific things. People of all races have done wonderful things. Give blame and credit to whom it is due, not to races.
I basically agree with you, but there’s one important point I think you’re overlooking — the effects of slavery didn’t end when slavery did.
After abolition, many states still had official segregation and discrimination. Blacks had less access to education and to good jobs and therefore less opportunity to pull themselves up. It wasn’t until the Civil Rights Act of the late 1960s that all of that was abolished, and there are plenty of older people alive today who lived under that system.
We’re getting to the point soon where there’ll be less and less of the ripples from that time of our history, but I think a lot of people want to say “slavery’s over, get over it,” and not acknowledge that something like that can — and does — echo for generations.
Blacks got the right to vote in 1870, but many states still had a poll tax — a cost to vote high enough to disenfranchise poor voters, mostly black — until the 24th Amendment was ratified in 1964.
These things are living memories for some older Americans, not just a story in a history book. Let’s not forget that or dismiss its importance.
Joel Mark at #31: Did you watch the video clips I mentioned? Or are you just so sure you’re right you don’t need any facts?
I find that a discussion about race on WorldMag is all but impossible.
First, there are few black voices on here and a tremendous lack of presentation of the black perspective.
Second, there is widespread denial or derision of the subtle racism that black folk still endure.
Third, there are too many people on here who are interested in exploiting the racial divide.
#35: I find that a discussion about race on WorldMag is all but impossible.
No duh! Leave to the Christians to complain that for a country that has had, at the least, race laws on it’s books, and at the most slavery, for all except a little more than seven years out of hundreds of years of history, to complain that it’s really the whites that suffer from discrimination.
Is it any wonder that these are the same people that want to spend a trillion dollars in Iraq, which has already thumbed it’s nose at us by chasing out nearly all the Christians, burned nearly every church and wrote Islam into it’s constitution as the national religion?
The same people that believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, in Noah’s Ark and Jonah and the Whale?
The same people that itch to write discrimination into our constitution?
The same people that want to teach mysticism as science in public schools?
It’s no surprise, no surprise at all!
Joel Mark: Except it turns out Rev. Wright doesn’t really preach that.
Actually, it turns out no such thing. He most certainly does preach outright lies deliberately designed to inculcate hatred of whites among black people.
So what do you think the cause is? You insist you’re not saying it’s because they’re black, but you reject and ridicule the combination of factors I suggested.
As Tony Woodlief explained the other day in his comment on one of his articles, it’s largely because 70% OF ALL BLACK CHILDREN, AND ABOUT 98% OF INNER CITY BLACK CHILDREN, ARE RAISED WITHOUT FATHERS.
NT, I agree with you and Tony on that but it’s one of the elements of the culture of violence I already spoke of. Boys growing up in homes with strong, principled fathers are much less likely to go astray.
But while I agree that that’s an important factor, I’m not convinced it’s the only thing.
Why is it impossible to have an open honest discussion about this issue? I am southern and I am white. For years I have been made to feel inferior because I am from the South. People here my accent and automatically deduct 50 points from my IQ. I actually had a man from Michigan ask my in 1996 if we wore shoes down here. I said absolutely. We get our first pair when we get married, so we won’t be bare foot AND pregnant. Admittedly, I can sometimes be a smart-aleck. For years we white people have been told how wrong we have been. We apologized. Then we were told an apology was not enough. There needs to be restitution. NOW it is coming out that racism and hate has been being taught in the black churches. Who is demanding that they apologize to us? No one. We don’t expect it. And probably don’t deserve it, but let’s be open and honest.
I have a story I would like to share and when I do I really am not sure how it is going to be received. I am hesitant because I know there are those on here who will take it and twist it. When I share it, I am not asking for a pat on the back and being told I am a good person but I also don’t want to be told that I am not a good person for doing this either. So here goes:
I have said many times on here that race relations in the south are complicated. There was a time in my life that I worked full time and earned really good money in sales. I was married at the time and my husband was obsessive complulsive and the house had to be spotless at all times. There is a black woman named Leola that had cleaned for Georges mother for years and new how George was. She started cleaning for me. I freely admit to everyone that if Leola hadn’t shown up at my house after Chloe was born I would have been totally lost. She showed me how to care for Chloe and her baby things. (who knew you needed to safety pin their little socks together before you washed them?).
I have been divorced for almost 4 years now, some of that time I have made good money and some of that time I haven’t. The past year has been a real struggle for me. During the past four years Leola has called me 3 times needing money. It wasn’t much. Sometimes it was $100 sometimes it was only $50. I have always managed to get it together for her. She has needed to go to the doctor or she has needed medicine. I have had to admit to her that I just can’t afford to have her come clean my house every other week like she used to, but I have told her that if she needs something and I can do it for her I will. I try and most of the time I do. Leola is now probably in her 70’s. She calls me every once in a while and tells me it is time for her to come clean my house. I go pick her up, bring her here, rearrange my budget and pay her. Do you see? It IS complicated. We are interdependent in a way that cannot be explained. She has a great-granddaughter that is about a year younger than Chloe. Shanila has been right up there with Chloe on the best dressed little girl list because there was a time when I smocked church dresses for Chloe and when she outgrew them Shanila got them.
I truly am not sharing this so that any of you can say Oh Kim is acting like such a good Christian or whatever. I am sharing this so you can know that black people and white people CAN and DO get along in the south and elsewhere. And for as long as I can I will take care of Chloe, myself, and Leola in that order. My dad is pretty self sufficient.
No offense, but your problem is that you try to equate some personal experience with hundreds of years of torture and slavery.
#40: For years I have been made to feel inferior because I am from the South
See, stuff like this is on you honey. NO ONE can make you feel inferior without your help. Everyone has had someone look down on them. When they look down on me, I feel pity, for them, NOT me.
#40: I said absolutely. We get our first pair when we get married, so we won’t be bare foot AND pregnant.
No offecse, but this sounds more like the response of someone with smarts, a sense of humor and a way of putting that man in his place.
#40: NOW it is coming out that racism and hate has been being taught in the black churches.
Saying don’t trust and don’t depend on whites is not preaching hate. If that’s the way you want to interpret it, that’s on you.
You know what this is like? It’s like us trying to force democracy on the Iraqis at the end of a gun. All you can do is live by example and let others see you as you want to be seen. Unfortunatly, you telling people how they should live after the entire race has suffered hundreds of years of abuse doesn’t say much about you. Sorry.
I know a story about a young black child who was accused of whistling at a white girl. When he was later found, he was tied to a tree and his skin had been blow torched off his body.
We know that black and white people can get along. Slavery never would have stoped without white support. With a black population in this country of between 11 and 12 percent, Obama certainly wouldn’t be where he is without white support. HE knows that. HE has said that in his speeches. HE says he if from a different generation from Wright. No one from Wrights geneation would ever had considered being president. Should Obama turn away from his pastor because his pastor grew up in a different time? How come no Christians are denouncing Hagee and Parsley? Oh, that’s right, it’s different. Parsley is only a “spiritual advisor”. Yea Right.
RDEAN wrote; “When it comes to discrimination in this country, I don’t care that it’s ‘worse’ in other countries.”
I do care about unjust discrimination wherever it happens. And if it is worse in others countries, we should still care. And we should be grateful for what we have here that is better and still work on what we can improve. We can raise a standard for ourselves AND still care about those who suffer elsewhere.
RDEAN wrote; “Obviously, I am not a Christian since the majority of them approve of discrimination against our American brothers and sisters.’
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Rdean,
You don’t know what you are talking about. What other experiences could Kim give except HER OWN? You make remarks about Kim’s post, what you should do is apologize to her for what you posted. Her remarks are thoughtful, yours are shooting from the hip. SHAME ON YOU!
Kim posted a very well written post, which anyone could understand. She makes it easier to understand some of the things which are lived out every day in the south. I have never lived in the south, however I have traveled in that area, and enjoyed it.
Victoria,
When I think back a month or so ago about another conversation that turned to the south, I am truly honored by your comments concerning my post. I am having trouble expressing myself. Thank you is the best I can do.
RDean, we all need to start somewhere. So why not start with my experience and your experience and JoannaB’s experience. Let’s start a dialogue and not stop. I just got back from having Easter lunch/dinner with my friends Steve and Debbie. Their daughter is engaged to a black man. One of the cultural things in the south (in my family) is that the women get the food ready and have the men go through the buffet line first. Darnell was the “guest male” in the house, so I handed him a plate and asked him to start. He put his plate aside and said “No I can’t. I wouldn’t feel right going before you ladies” What woman wouldn’t love that man? His mama should be proud!
Kim,
Thank you for your post. I’m truly sorry for my part in the discussion not so long ago.
Our service this morning was wonderful, we stayed home and listened on the radio. My husband had the flu last week and I came down with it this week. We are enjoying the day, and will have our lamb later this evening.
Enjoy the rest of Resurrection Sunday. I love this time of year.
God bless you and Chloe
Words and Music by Jill Jackson and Sy Miller
Let There Be Peace On Earth,
and let it be - gin with me._____
Let There Be Peace On Earth,
the peace that was meant to be._____
With God as our Fa - ther,
broth - ers all are we,____
Let me walk with my broth-er,____
in per-fect har - mo - ny.____
Let peace be - gin with me,
let this be the mo - ment now,_______
With ev-’ry step I take,
let this be my sol - emn vow,___
To take each mo - ment and live each mo - ment
in peace, e - ter - nal - ly.____
Let There Be Peace On Earth,
and let it be - gin with me._____
FROM Victoria: You make remarks about Kim’s post, what you should do is apologize to her for what you posted.
I’m sorry Victoria, sorry that you are such a mess. That you of all people should say anyone should apoligize about anything is pathetic.
And what did I say? Oh, things like, “NO ONE can make you feel inferior without your help.” and “this sounds more like the response of someone (obviously referring to Kim) with smarts, a sense of humor and a way of putting that man in his place”.
Yea, real put downs Victoria. Vicky, Vicky, Vicky, what a mess. Maybe you should learn to read other than Bible quotes? Hmmm?
#42: I have no idea what you are talking about.
Typical. The gays IM, the gays.
#45: So why not start with my experience and your experience and JoannaB’s experience.
Sure, except I suspect your experiences don’t include such minor things as “DWB”. Besides all the other things whites have to worry about, blacks have to worry about DWB (driving while black).
Funny, I watched an interview with Montel Williams. He was driving a new auto, some expensive range rover or something, and was stopped by 4 police cars, guns drawn, ordered to get out and lay down on the ground.
When he stepped out of the car, the police apologized - look, it’s “Montel”. They said someone had called in that a black guy was driving a car that looked “too” expensive. Yea, too expensive for a black guy. 4 police cars, guns drawn, a wrong twitch, and Montel would have been a statistic. THAT IS RACISM. It’s called racial profiling. All blacks have to think about this when they leave the house. Whites don’t, so just stop already and live in today’s world.
RDean, and you have suffered how. If we talk about it then the next time someone calls the cops because a black guy is driving a car that looks too expensive the cops will say so what, probably can afford it. Here is a stereotypical response for you…”Everyone” knows in the south that black people have traditionally driven nicer cars on average than white people because for so long they weren’t welcome in the “nicer” neighborhoods so they put their money into their cars. From my short time in the car industry, get a car from a white woman on trade in and it is a wreck because her children have eaten in it and trashed it. Get a car in on trade in from a black person and it is spotless and reeks of Armor-All. I’m sorry that I was born white and therefore am so offensive. Truly it was a freak of nature because if there is any such thing as reincarnation (which I highly doubt) and there is any justice in the universe I AM coming back as a black woman. I just LOVE their attitude and self confidence. I particularly love them when I am working out at the gym and they talk about how much weight they need to GAIN. The men folk apparently love their butts and having a more than ample derriere I am half way there. As my black co-worker Yolanda informed me: Girl, you got a N%^^#@ butt. And don’t let those white men tell you they don’t love it because I catch them checking mine out all the time.
And by the way, I have no choice but to live in today’s world and neither do you. I am glad I can have the experiences and conversations I am able to have with the black people I know.
RDean, are you black? Are you gay? Are you in any of the “protected” classes?
The men folk apparently love their butts and having a more than ample derriere I am half way there. As my black co-worker Yolanda informed me: Girl, you got a N%^^#@ butt.
Oh, dear…
I think this thread has officially jumped the shark.
Kim, this is one post I won’t forget, it’s a ‘headliner’ for sure.
My cousin went to a well known University and one of the ‘guys’ who, if I mentioned his name you would ALL KNOW. Yep he’s black and he once told her how good she looked, _____ LOL. She’s told that story over and over. And yes she looks good, after two kids, …. Oh, her husband thinks so to and he’s white.
NT, the thread didn’t jump the shark, it just took a different route rather than the same old grips and groans.
#49: RDean, and you have suffered how.
Do I have to “suffer” to recognize racist behavior? Do I have to be gay to know that gay isn’t a “choice” and it’s despicable to discriminate against American citizens who have broken no law?
Do I have to be anti religion to know that it’s destructive to the country to replace science with mysticism in our public schools?
What makes us different than the animals is that some of us can think. We can imagine what real evil behavior is. As they say, “Walk a mile in my shoes”.
I refuse to play the “My experiences have been worse than yours” game. Because I know that the black friends I have had way worse experiences than me.
There is one especially that stands out in my mind. When I was in college, I did some plumbing work for a man that owned an expensive shop in the Loop in Chicago. We became kind of friends because he bought several pen and inks I had on display at the Chicago Art festival for his shop, which he sold. I spent Saturday morning replacing pipes to two sinks that were leaking in the ladies room. When I finished, the guy told me to meet him in a bar just around the corner. He would pay me and we could sit and talk and relax for a minute. So here I’m sitting in this very nice bar and lounge. Very nice, comfortable couches and a beautiful fire place. Me, in dirty overalls with a battered tool box drinking a beer. In walks my friend. He is a mature gentleman in an expensive Italian suit that owns one of the most popular shops in Chicago with a clientele that includes Lionel Richie, Vanessa Williams, Diana Ross, Harold Washington and others. Their pictures hang all over his shop. He gets stopped. They want to see three pieces of ID. I walk up and say, is there a problem? The bartender says, “Is he with you?” I’m standing there looking like a bum and the bartender says, “Is he with you”? Pathetic.
I wasn’t going to play the game, but I just couldn’t help myself.
I won’t even go into what happened to my black friends when I was in the military.
I don’t have to imagine what it’s like to be black in America. I witnessed it in the 60’s, until today.
I get so sick of those that rag on gays and when I ask, “Do you know any”? say, and I don’t want to, or, sure, and I tell them all the time what’s wrong with them. I know those are lying. No one hangs out with those that tell him or her are sick. That would be sick. When the contribution to society from evangelicals equals the contributions by the gays, then the evangelicals can maybe be a tiny bit judgmental, until then, they should just leave the gays alone and work on their std filled kids and their 50% divorce rate.
RDean, I’m not sure people are saying that racism doesn’t exist. As matter of fact I have a very similar story where I was shopping in a well-known chain department store (not Wal-Mart) with a well-dressed, elegant black friend and I am in jeans and tee shirt. When we wrote checks for our purchases, she was asked for extra ID and I was not. I always thought that was strange and that I looked more like a crook than she did. But, I think most are saying that racism needs to stop on both sides if we are to move on. Why should I have to pay for what this cashier did? I would give this friend my house keys, my cars keys and my credit card if she asked. I have literally trusted her with my first-born. For her to take it out on me would be just as racist as what the cashier did. Also throwing the word racist around too easily stop dialogue.
By the way, I have a question for you in Whirled Views.
It seems to me, part of the racial issues we have is that there is a heightened hypersensitivity to anything that might be remotely perceived as a slight whether intended or not.
I have a story from my own household which is a good illustration of the problem.
My son was one to hold grudges when he was a child. He looked at himself and his sister and was constantly comparing the way we treated him and the way we treated her. As parents, we learned rather quickly that what works for one child doesn’t always work for the other. (Anyone with more than one child will tell you that). Our daughter was one of those who you merely had to give “the look” and she would straighten up and fly right. My son, OTOH, was one of those who required more “hands on” redirection. He used to complain bitterly that we treated Sis better than we treated him, and we continually told him that he was in control of how he was to be treated. If he wanted to pursue his bad behavior beyond getting “the look” from Mom and Dad, he would reap the consequences of his behavior. He reaped many consequences that his sister didn’t because he always had to learn the hard way.
This caused him to resent his sister and he was so blind in his resentment that he truly believed that we favored Sis, when in fact, they were both reaping what they sowed. Now we get to the part of the relationship between the two. It did not matter to him what she said or did, he resented her and in his resentment, he always perceived anything she said to him as a personal slight or attack, whether one was intended or not. He was hypersensitive about everything. I remember telling him one time, you are going to find what you’re looking for. If you are looking for a reason to resent and a reason to hate or a reason to be unhappy, you are going to find it. If, OTOH, you are looking for a reason or a way to get along, you will find that too.
Make no mistake, sometimes his sister was a real snot to him, and sometimes, because we are all fallable she got away with it. I will say that he got away with much less than she did. Whenever she was caught doing something not nice to him, in his mind, the consequence was to lenient, she was not sorry enough for what she did, on and on… Oh, the injustice of it all! “That’s not fair” was his biggest refrain and if I had a nickel for every time he said it…
When they were both in trouble, he wanted to shift the focus onto her: “Well she did this and that…” I always told him, “This is not about her, it’s about you.” Often, neither one of them saw the correction given to the other one. He didn’t want the humiliation of her seeing his correction, yet he wanted to see her correction.
It took years for him to recognize the fact that much of his lot in life was brought upon him by his own actions and attitudes, and he was in control of much of it. Now, he’ll be the first one to tell you that he was wrong a lot of the time and he harbored a lot of unfounded anger, bitterness and resentment to which he clung. It wasn’t until Sis went to college that he let it go and developed an appreciation for her.
He also finally broke the code that says, I can look for the good, or I can find a reason to be angry, resentful and feel slighted. It all boils down to unforgiveness and personal responsibility.
We need to forgive others in order to move on. If we harbor unforgiveness, we can’t move on. Unforgiveness breeds hate and resentment. And if we don’t take personal responsibility to improve our lot in life, and quit complaining about our victimhood and whatever it is that keeps us down, and do something about it, then things are never going to change. If my unforgiveness is what feeds my desire to find a slight behind everything someone else says or does, there will be no progress and then I will justify my acting out because they deserve the brunt of my anger.
Forgiveness and personal responsibility.
There are a lot of parallels here, but I expect that at least one person will find things to tear apart in this illustration.
He who has ears to hear…
Klasko: In microcosm that’s a good example and illustration of some of the underlying dynamics, with one addition — what if there had been a time when the parents really did favor Sis? A time that is not that far in the past?
Wouldn’t that make the boy’s heightened sensitivity understandable, even if no longer correct?
Obviously since I live in Africa, I am the minority,(one of 3 whites in my village). There is racism here as well. Some resentment of whites because of colonialism, but mostly the attitude of entitlement. “You have more than I do, so you owe me…” That attitude is not just Africans toward non-Africans, but also toward Africans who have “made it” by African standards. At the same time, incidents like happened in the store and the bar, happen here all the time. As a white, an African businessman will trust/believe me before he will trust/believe another African. People tell me all the time, referring to their fellow Africans, “We know each other.” Then, of course, there is the “racism” between tribes. In this country they don’t fight, but there are definite stereotypes and negative feelings between certain tribes.
Just thought I would give you a view from a minority white in a majority black culture.
I can relate and empathize with blacks who are only seen as N* and not as individuals. It happens to me all the time. I am constantly called a name that is the term here for white person. I really hate it when someone who knows my name greets me with that term instead of my name. Although I am not stopped for DWW, sometimes I can be hassled because they think that I will pay a bribe. Prices go up dramatically when I try to buy something, just because I’m white and “rich”. They don’t know me, but because I’m white, I’m rich and should therefore pay a much higher price than everyone else. Discrimination happens everywhere. It’s not right, but should I get angry and hold a grudge about it? No. I need to be wise and ready to deal with the discrimination, but anger doesn’t solve anything.
SteveG - Yes, it would make the hypersensitivity understandable, but not excusable. Even in that case, what can Mom and Dad or Sis do to make restitution?
Will it ever be anough to appease the son? Not until the son chooses to let bygones be bygones and accept the olive brancees offered when they are offered and forgive, whether it is deserved or not. That is the Christlike thing to do.
True Christians, regardless of skin color can do this.
Apologies are not always accepted, and we cannot ever be sorry enough. Should the sins of the fathers continue to be visited upon the children and grandchildren and innocent bystanders whose fathers had nothing to do with it? Where does it end?
Forgiveness and personal responsibility have to play a part in the recovery we are looking for. Understanding the reason for the hypersensitivity should never be construed as condoning the hypersensitivity.
It doesn’t help when those who rise above the downtroddenness are labeled as being Uncle Toms. They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
What gets me is how we’re all the time hearing about how black males can’t catch a cab because of “racist” taxi drivers. Maybe some black males have trouble hailing a taxi, but it’s a lie that they all do. In fact, the Chattanooga paper recently ran a story about one who successfully hailed a cab.
http://chattanoogan.com/articles/article_124065.asp
#59: The gunman was described as a young black male around 17-18 wearing a do-rag.
You can find crimes committed by anyone. You know that in nearly every hate crime against gays where the perpetrator knew the person was gay, was committed by someone who identified themself as “Christian”. Why? Because Christians hate gays. That’s why the are fixated on them. Just listen to any Christian minister or paster. It is certainly no secret.
Aren’t there a lot of black taxi drivers? I don’t know, I’m asking. Are black taxi drivers refusing to pick up black males?
Ajisuun, I didn’t get a chance to read the whole thing but this might answer your question.
http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/jyinger/Classes/PPA786/Readings/taxi.htm
Well, Obama regularly lies about having trouble getting a cab in NYC. Right, like Obama takes cabs…Anyway, NYC is the classic city where people claim this problem is rampant. Danny Glover was going on about it a couple years ago. And, yes, an awful lot of the cab drivers there are black. A great number of them are Indian/Pakistani/Eastern Asian. Very, very few of them are white.
Wow, take a walk and this is what you come back to!
This line of Anlir’s was interesting: “First, there are few black voices on here and a tremendous lack of presentation of the black perspective.”
All last week, and to some extent on this thread as well, there were those who were trying to give you the “Christian” perspective — that everyone is responsible for his/her own sin. That has nothing to do with race. That’s what Klasko is saying in Post 54. That “system” works for both black and white and every other color. We all have had problems and have been discriminated against in one form or another. It all hurts. At some point, the blacks will have to realize that the Civil War is over. Those people are dead and gone. Just think of the blood that was shed at Gettysburg alone. White people paid that day and every other day of that war for the 3/5 compromise. And it’s over. Does that mean there hasn’t been injustice? Absolutely not. But every group experiences it; every individual experiences it. How you react to it is another story.
Whether it is a racial issue or any other form of discrimination — or just a plain old problem, at some point, you only move on if you give up the anger and give up blame and ask yourself what you can do to help yourself. This can be done by a group as well. It works for nations: South Africa is an example. Did you see a bloodbath there? No. I think this is what Klasko is getting at, but Klasko also foresaw that there would be detractors who would want to obfuscate this simple truth. Don’t make it harder than it has to be. It starts with a decision, a choice that says I choose not to be angry. I choose to forgive instead and move on together. That’s not what Rev. Wright was preaching.
(People don’t get cabs in NY because the cab driver chooses someone he thinks will get him a better fare and a better tip. I am white, a female, and when I’ve gone to NY and look like a tourista — even a well-dressed tourista — they see me coming and wave “off duty” at me. They want Mr. Businessman. So my SOP is to walk to the bus station. Get over it. Take a bus.)
There is absolutely no way the wrongs of the past can be made right by this generation, for the generations past, including the 60’s and walking back through time to the very beginning of slave ships bringing those from Africa.
No matter how much has been accomplished since the 60’s through legislation, financial support, large amounts of money for education, it will never be enough. We who look upon the anger from the black community cannot ‘fix’ the past, its over.
Constant complaining, such as we hear now during this campaign, has re-awakened more anger from the black community, BUT most of all it has uncovered a very ‘well kept secret’ and that is, what is thundered from the pulpits of many black churches in America today. Little did we ‘white American’s’ know that church included a big slant on politics, anger at whites, resentment, grudges, and bitter hearts from those who warm the pews of the black church.
Many white American’s feel ‘BETRAYED’ by the rhetoric from the black community, half hearted admitting to what goes on ‘during church’ what is being done to keep anger, hate and racist comments regarding whites alive. However worst of all are those who, after this has been exposed are still adamantly denying the comments which are made by pastor’s in churches against us who are white.
When do the blacks accept the apologies from white America? When do blacks accept responsibility for what they are doing to ‘themselves’?
Racist.
NT - 65
Who is that remark directed to?
Here is an intresting quote.
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life,” lamented the Rev. Jesse Jackson in 1993, “than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery — then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
Kbells, that’s revealing isn’t it?
We were in Manhatten a few years ago, it was a warm evening, we were on our way to the Deli. My husband, myself and another associate were waiting at a light to cross the street. A very large black man looked straight at me, as I tried to twist my rings around, he saw it and started for us, all the people who were there started to run. What a horrible feeling,…. maybe 20 people were in the group crossing the street. The man had no fear whatever. We all made a lot of noise and kept running, and this was in a busy lovely part of the city.
Kim and Klasko both get a gold star.
Thank you, Anlir.
A gold star for what?
Victoria, would you email me at [email protected]?
Kim,
For speaking from the heart in ways that encourage dialog.
OH. Well thank you.
Kim, my Hotmail isn’t working, I will try later on.
OK.