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The fact that a 17-year-old British beautician made it to the finals in Miss England’s annual contest may not seem unusual. But in Chloe Marshall’s case, she ranks as the first plus-sized model in British history to make it that far. Touting herself as a role model and an outspoken critic of the fashion industry’s fixation on “thin,” Marshall herself is generating intense criticism:
“Feted and fawned over for her courage in daring to break the mould, Chloe boasts she wants to be an ‘ambassador for curves’,” wrote [Daily Mail] columnist and former Miss England judge Monica Grenfell. “Who does she think she’s kidding?”
“What she’s demonstrating isn’t bravery but a shocking lack of self-control,” she wrote. “Instead of flaunting her figure, Chloe ought to own up to the truth. She is fat and she got that way by over-eating.”
Grenfall continues by saying, “It would send an appalling–and very dangerous–message to other young women that it’s OK to be fat. Chloe is a stark reminder that obesity is now virtually normal in our society–and we should all be hanging our heads in shame.” But couldn’t the same be said for the other side of spectrum that proudly parades emaciated models on runways and in magazine ads?
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A matter of life
Great Topic.
I agree that thin has gotten too thin, but this gal is a little more than just curvy.
I, personally, don’t care what she weighs, but I can understand the reaction she’s getting. Sure, it’s terrible to glamourize anorexics, but she’s probably not at a healthy weight. There is a happy medium somewhere.
That girl is obese. Period. I agree with EYG: don’t glamourize the super-thin. But don’t let the pendulum swing too far the other way, either.
EYG and LESTER, STOP BEING SUCH HATERS. This girl isn’t even over 200 lbs. If you saw her with her clothes on, she would have a similar body than most of the women you know. What is truly remarkable is that she’s bearing herself–and she’s not one of those super skinny nipped-and-tucked-ladies that you’re used to seeing.
By the way, that Daily Mail argument is bunk. I am not advocating obesity. But as a woman who has struggled with weight (and self hatred) all her life, it is really great to see a healthy big girl like her. And it’s really depressing to watch the backlash.
They’re lying about her weight and BMI. If she’s really 5′10″, this experienced eye puts her weight at at least 220. That makes her BMI 31.6.
Greenfall is right on target. The fact that rare, mentally-ill girls starve themselves to look like freakishly-thin fashion models shouldn’t obscure the rip-roaring epidemic of obesity. In terms of premature death, obesity is more dangerous than smoking; it should be fought tooth and nail.
She is a beautiful girl, and has nothing to be “ashamed” of. Her weight is her own business. Seeing her isn’t going to make me run out and gain 40 pounds. Those skinny runway girls and those who promote them as the standard of beauty are the ones who should be “ashamed”. Most people have to have an eating disorder to stay that thin!
You’re experience, Stubob, trumps their measurements? Unbelievable! Well, my “experienced eye” would’ve guessed right around the weight they gave, and I think that my experience as a woman who used to be obsessed with weight and body image trumps yours. This woman is by no means obese. She doesn’t even have any fat rolls. The fact that the men here are calling her obese shows just how distorted the ideal has become. In another era, she would’ve been described as “pleasingly plump” or something along those lines.
I, as a woman, am going to agree with Stubob here. I do give him much credit for his “experienced eye” and would tend to agree that her representatives are either lying about her height or weight. (I’m sorry but a doctor’s opinion - and a doctor of WOMEN no less - holds more weight with me than someone who used struggled with weight.) She seems overweight whether she has clothes on or not. I don’t think she has anything to be “ashamed” of, but I do think she has an unhealthy image of herself. She’s working so hard to not become the stick-thin model that she’s swinging the other way and it WILL encourage other women - especially young, impressionable teenage girls who struggle with their weight anyway - to just think overweight is the new healthy. I don’t know what the actual measurements for the term “obese” are, so I can’t throw that word around, but she is overweight and wants others to be also.
REE — My experience trumps their statements, yes. They lie just like basketball teams lie about the sizes of their players. I look at about 80 female bellies a week, and know the height and weight of each of their owners. 176# at 5′10″ is a little thick. This woman is obese.
I’m not buying that fat girls are beautiful, except on the inside of course.
Interesting issue, and so far boring predictable responses from our conservative mens.
It’s not there is an obesity epidemic that is at issue here, but the fact that this writer seems to think its acceptable to hold this woman personally accountable for it. The arg is that “women” will think it’s OK to be fat. And the WHOLE issue of weight is made female, cast as a female problem, and females are the one held to task.
It’s an example that the standard for “health” much less “skinny” will always be disproportionately applied to women.
Women and men who feel compelled to defend this woman’s weight are doing so in reaction to the misogynistic behavior of the western media, and Grenfall’s equally misogynistic attitudes are ultimately going to serve to bolster arguments in Marshall’s favor.
Stop screaming. I’m no hater. I just believe if you’re going to slam models for being too thin (hence “romanticizing” anorexia), the same criticism should be applied to fat models, and in this case, obese ones.
There is no way that she ways 176 pounds. Not at 5′ 10″. She’s much fatter. I agree with Stubob.
I don’t have any daughters, but if I did I would tell them to look for role models among women they know personally who have a healthy self-image. Chances are none of those women will win any beauty contests - nor have any interest in the idea.
As for this woman, I think she looks fine in the dress. But she could have picked a bathing suit this is more suited to her figure.
I agree with STUBOB. No way this woman is under 200 lbs, at 5′10. That is unless the photo is distorted to make her look heavier than she really is.
I think it’s clear that our culture’s idea of beauty has been skewered towards meaning “skinny”, BUT I think our definition of “obesity” is also skewered. I look at her and think, “Well, she’s not nearly as fat as some of the people I see every day”, and that’s a sad statement.
Our culture has become far too comfortable with obesity. Like REE’s comment in #6 about that she “doesn’t even have any fat rolls“. So are fat rolls now the standard?
I’m sure STUBOB could clarify what “obese” exactly means. It’s not just a label we apply to “reallly fat” people.
I hope I don’t offend anyone but I have to admire a really stout gal with an equally stout sense of humor - I saw her tooling along past me. She was driving an old Buick with a sort of a list to the left. The first thing I noticed about her was her excessive stoutness; she was definitely not skinny, if you get my drift.
The second thing I noticed was the bumper sticker on her car.
It read “Fat people are hard to kidnap”.
As for this woman, I think she looks fine in the dress
Pauline,
Are you talking about the picture on the cover of the magazine? Because I’m pretty sure that is someone else.
I wish that people didn’t even have this conversation. At this stage of my life it just seems weird to be talking about how fat or how skinny a person is. As if it matters!
I think it is perfectly legitimate for a doctor to talk to a patient about the health risks of being overweight; otherwise, most talk of other people’s weight feels like idle gossip and it seems very hurtful. In the context of a beauty pageant it seems like lust (on the part of men) or envy (on the part of women).
It’s 2008, and we still obsess about people’s outward appearance? And we Christians actually engage in the obsession? Ugh!!!!!
I hate to agree with Luke too often, but in this case I do. It seems that misogyny is at the root of this particular controversy.
I have to go along with Kyle and add that in this day and age, I find it hard to believe we still have beauty pageants. Why are the libbers up in arms about that?
The young lady is not out of the normal range for teenagers.
Yes, she is a bit heavy, and could stand to tone up some (which would result in some slimming) - but she not unusual in any context other than the realm of the hyper-thin media.
The young lady is not out of the normal range for teenagers.
And if that is true, that is sad. I just looked up on Wiki (not sure if it’s accurate) and 64% of Americans are overweight or obese.
Sometimes normal is not so good.
but she not unusual in any context other than the realm of the hyper-thin media.
And despite the hyper-thin media, obesity rates in the US have been steadily climbing for decades.
I’m not trying to bash this young lady, because I admire her self-confidence. But I think we could use a little less “it’s OK to be heavy” in this country. I’m curious how much money obesity is costing us.
#3
Who is being a hater? Looks like you’ve got three fingers pointing back at yourself.
PS to all.
I am in no way implying that she should be ashamed. I too, admire her courage and self-confidence. And yes, she’s beautiful.
But, if the argument is against unhealthy body images, hers doesn’t appear to be at a healthy BMI.
That does not mean I’m a hater.
Sheesh.
Fat? Yes. Obese? No. I agree with whoever said “pleasantly plump”.
This woman is obese. I agree with Stubob, at 5′ 10″ she most likely weighs at least 220 or more. Being over-weight causes all sorts of health risks.
People tend to think of fitness in California, eating healthy, exercise and a healthy lifestyle. It’s a matter of overeating, and making excuses for doing so.
Below: an articl and pictues of the contestant.
A role model for ordinary women? No, Miss England finalist is fat, lazy and a poster girl for ill health
We’re all up in arms about this. You should have seen the ones that didn’t make the cut.
http://tinyurl.com/2w225h
Now, continue with your bashing of fat people.
Metanoia
No one is ‘bashing’ anyone, but we are pointing out how unhealthy being obese is. Granted the link you posted reveals many more huge obese women, that in no way makes the woman in the beauty contest of normal weight. She’s just less obese then the ones in your link.
Metanoia - you should put a disclaimer on that link. I’m sorry I clicked it!
Victoria - calling this woman lazy is not constructive. You don’t know that she’s lazy. Many people have poor eating habits. I don’t get enough exercise, either, and may be as “unhealthy” as she is. I am a size 4. I do not diet, but I do try to eat in a healthy manner.
I also don’t think that those who bash small people are right, either. If someone is a size 0, why should she be criticized for it? People come in all shapes and sizes, and making fun of someone because she is small is just as rude as making fun of a fat person. This woman is beautiful. Should she win the pageant? I don’t know - but just being skinny doesn’t equal being healthy, just as all fat people aren’t unhealthy.
What is the criteria for the competition?
TL
I didn’t call the woman “lazy” in post #24, .. the title of the article called her “lazy”-
I wear a small size as well. I eat a healthy diet, avoiding excess sugar and fat. People do come in all sorts of sizes, but it doesn’t mean they need to focus on eating so much food that their weight goes off the scale.
Obese people complain that they have to buy two seats when traveling by plane. It’s uncomfortable to sit next to them, they hang over their seats. Trying to get around someone who is overweight while going to the restroom in not fun, nor is it good when you have to remove yourself from an isle seat, and walk behind just so that person can get out.
I don’t believe anyone is making fun of her, at least I’m not. I do find it necessary to speak up regarding those who flaunt unhealthy bodies due to massive food intake, just like those who don’t eat, becoming skin and bones.
What is the criteria for the competition?”
Good question. I think all contestants perform a cannonball jump off a 1-metre diving board. The top 10 biggest splashes proceed to the congeniality round.
The problem is gravity.
For instance, over the past thirty years or so gravity has pulled all the once-splendid muscles in my chest area down to around my tummy. My tummy is kind of like Florida for my muscles; they go there to retire.
On the lower end, all my leg muscles have drained down (due to the relentless pull of gravity) into my feet, which are now much larger, flatter and nobbier than they used to be due to all that pooled fossilized muscle; as a consequence my legs are somewhat thin and peculiar looking.
Gravity also affects ones hair, I have noticed. It pushes it ever downward over the years, so that it disappears from up top, but migrates and eventually reappears in various strange places lower down, like in ones ears or nostrils.
Anyway, I weigh about the same as I used to; things have just been redistributed.
So if this redistribution keeps up and I live to be a hundred and ten, I will by then essentially be nothing but a large pancake lying flush with the ground, about seven feet in diameter and three inches high, with a lot of hair on my bottom surface.
It will be hard for my great-grand-children to stoop down that far to kiss me.
A pox on gravity.
That was a good one Drill
Without gravity, there’d be too much levity. No one would take anything seriously.
I’m the ambassador for washboards.
Drill can be the ambassador for pancakes.
…hairy pancakes, that is.
Who wants to be the ambassador for cellulite?
A 6′ llama at 250 lbs would as fit and trim as a fiddle able to carry half his body weight over frozen 15,000′ high mountain peaks without breaking a sweat or even spitting. Heavier or thinner doesn’t natter much - llamas are pretty much fit unless diseased or old.
Humans tend to get overweight (at 6′in height) around 200 lbs, fat at 225 and obese at 250 - unable to tie their own shoes or ride an escalator much less walk on flat ground. Some get up to 750 pounds at that height but they don’t get around much and die pretty quick.
We figured you were all trying to kill yourselves one way or another with all the crime, drugs, food, drink and other vices you humans are so fond of. But then we realized you were just stupid, not responsible for your own actions and couldn’t help yourselves even if you tried.
So don’t worry about it or yourselves - no one else worries about you and we won’t miss you when you are gone either. Llamas won’t even feed on your carrion
One of the sad things for overweight people is that the result of their unhealthy habits (&/or sin) is obvious to all. The thin, pretty woman with a drug or drinking problem can hide her problem & still be thought beautiful.
The woman who likes her sweets a little too much but doesn’t smoke, drink, or do drugs has to live with the stigma of being overweight, knowing that people are judging her everytime she steps out in public.
Well, Karen O, if the the thin ones can’t be ambassadors for curves, maybe they can be ambassadors for weed or coke or tequila (or other drug of choice)? I mean really, who wants to be the “Ambassador for lines” or the “ambassador for sticks”? Definitely not as catchy.
I’ve seen this girl move in a video prior to this thread. She’s overweight for sure, but why can’t girls her size see how clothes look on her and get ideas from her?
My best friend is heavy, but she’s the nicest person on the planet. In past years, when we approached a makeup counter, one salesperson treated her with the attitude that no amount of makeup/lipstick would help her. When she bought a new house, in a furniture store, the salesperson talked only to me no matter how many times I told her I didn’t even live in the area and I wasn’t buying furniture. This person lost a commission on over $10,000 worth of furniture.
Maybe all industries, not just the fashion industry needs to learn to deal with heavy people as people. I’m not advocating overeating at all, but this is the last thing kids should be made to feel ashamed about.
This is shallow.
Karen
You post… “One of the sad things for overweight people is that the result of their unhealthy habits (&/or sin) is obvious to all. The thin, pretty woman with a drug or drinking problem can hide her problem & still be thought beautiful.”
Women and men who are good looking trim/fit do not deserve the comparison you make. What you are doing is taking a group of people who eat healthy, who look good . . trying to concoct a sin which isn’t there. Is this what you think when you see an attractive trim person, they must be taking drugs or drinking all the time?
Most people who are living a heathy lifestyle wouldn’t think of taking drugs or drinking to excess, it makes NO SENSE.
LOL, Drill!
That was so funny!
Victoria, Karen O,
Perhaps a better comparison would be to good-looking people who commit the sins of pride or laziness or gossip or selfish overspending. The point is not that thin or fat people commit different sins, but that everyone sins. Some people’s sins are simply more obvious than others, which I think is what Karen O was trying to say.
I clicked on Victoria’s link above.
That picture is less flattering, but, it shows her shape a lot better.
NJL
I have overweight friends and cousins whom I care deeply about. However when they are in a bad mood they take their weight out on some of the rest of us. I would never say something unkind to any of them, but more often than not, a person who is very over-weight will make unkind remarks to those of us who are slender.
Children who overweight are usually unhealthy. It is a problem parents should deal with if their child is eating too much, OR food that is not healthy. It has nothing to do with ’shame’ it has everything to do with health.
Insurance costs have sky-rocketed. People who are obese have many more illnesses. Heart, cancer, diabetes, digestive problems, there’s a long list. It costs a great deal of money to be fat.
Karen O and NJLawyer: As someone who has struggled with weight issues all of my life I can tell you that it can be, pardon the pun, a heavy cross to bear.
When I was born I weighed 10 pounds 4 ounces. At 11 months old, I weighed 41 pounds. If you were to see the pictures you would say that I was a big boy, but I didn’t look fat. I like to tell people that I was big when I was little.
I’m 6 feet 5 inches. My doctor tells me that my weight is fine, but that I need to grow another 7 inches.
I have come to grips with the fact that I will probably be big the rest of my life. I do the best I can as a fallen man in a fallen world with way too many options to overindulge in too many things.
I found a weight that is maintainable. Some would say I’m too big, but I find that by eating reasonably and doing some kind of moderate exercise my weight doesn’t go up or down much. I have found equilibrium mentally, socially, emotionally and physically at the weight to which I have plateaued.
It’s the ones that keep gaining that concern me. If they are plateaued, then live the best you can. Yo-yo dieting isn’t good for you and continual weight gain will eventually kill you. Although, everybody dies of something.
Those who know me love me. Those who don’t may occasionally stare, or make a comment, but it falls off my back like water on a duck.
Zealots of every variety are a total turnoff whether one is pushing dietary supplements or fried twinkies.
I don’t know the young lady, but I’m not going to judge her by her cover. She may very well be better adjusted than many size 2’s.
Pauline,
YOU WRITE:…Perhaps a better comparison would be to good-looking people who commit the sins of pride or laziness or gossip or selfish overspending.”
Pauline, why would these sins come to mind when referring to “good-looking people”? This is just the sort of bias that many have against those who are trim and good looking…… so they must be lazy, gossip’s, prideful and over spending individuals?
Do obese people have more than one sin of eating more than they need to? Perhaps the jealousy which overweight people suffer from is at the root of the problem?
Metanoia, you have a good mental outlook.
Victoria- I did not say that all thin people take drugs or drink too much. I was using “the thin, pretty woman who…” as an example.
What Pauline & I are trying to say is that everyone is a sinner - fat, thin, pretty, not-so-pretty, etc. But the sin of compulsive overeating is much more obvious to casual observers than drug addiction or gossiping or whatever.
Victoria - I don’t think either Karen or Pauline mean that thin people commit all these sins. To me, they are saying that all of us sin - it just isn’t always obvious to the casual observer. And some fat people don’t sin by overindulgence - I believe that genetics does play a role in body size and there is only so much you can do to combat it. None of us would want our sin hung around our necks for everyone to see. Would you? So, Karen was bringing up the point that this is sad. I agree. The treatment of overweight people is awful in this world. No one should be judged by body size, but it happens everyday.
Well - there you go! Karen posted while I was typing and now we know.
I would never say something unkind to any of them, but more often than not, a person who is very over-weight will make unkind remarks to those of us who are slender.
I know I am sort of getting off topic, but I wanted to agree with this statement. There is a double standard regarding the discussion of weight. It would be considered very rude for a thin person to point out that another is fat, but it is fair game for the fat person to comment on the thin.
My wife is tall and thin (and beautiful I might add). She happened to receive good genes, but she is also very conscious about eating healthy. But what bothers me and her is that “bigger” folk get a free pass to say to her, “not that you would know anything about being fat” or “well I’m just not lucky enough to be thin like you.”
How is she supposed to respond to that??? I know there are worse situations to sympathize with, but I just wanted to acknowledge that it can make thin people very uncomfortable to make jokes about their weight too.
Karen
You can say anything you like, it was a nasty example. You took something which if it’s beauty is a gift from GOD. Those who take care of their health, eat right stay trim, are taking good care of what GOD gave them. Your example nullifies what GOD gave, and what the individual has done with it.
Graceland - If it makes you & your wife feel a bit better, I think those comments, though awkward, are intended in a complimentary nature.
Graceland - I hear that all the time. It’s annoying, since I didn’t ask to be petite. And yes, there are bigger problems to worry about. But, thin people, especially some I have known that feel they are TOO skinny and cannot gain weight even if they try, can be self-concious too. Pointing out and commenting on anyone’s weight is in poor taste. Simply say - “you look great” if that’s the case, or remain silent.
Graceland
Thank you for your remarks. It does get tiresome, and YES the ‘free passes’ that over-weight people take, is rude.
What continues to astound me is the idea that because someone isn’t over-weight, they must have sins that the over-weight people don’t have. In essence if you are slender, one must look for hidden sin and flaws.
Victoria - So, it’s not okay to point out that attractive & thin people are also sinners (& the example I used is from some I have known), but it is okay to point the finger at the overweight?
I admire beauty & grace in a woman, Victoria, whatever her weight.
Victoria - NO one said that thin people have more sins than overweight people.
#47 “Pauline, why would these sins come to mind when referring to “good-looking people”?”
Victoria,
Those sins come to mind when thinking of people in general, regardless of their looks. I have no bias against trim people. I used to be one and am working on getting back to being one.
Karen O’s point is that some sins are more obvious on the outside than others. We can look at an overweight person and guess that the person most likely overeats (there are physical conditions that cause overweight but they are very rare). We can’t look at a stranger - fat or thin - and guess that the person is proud or lazy or a gossip or a spendthrift.
Certainly some people seem to struggle with more sins than others - or to simply give in to them and not struggle much at all. And overweight people often - though not always - sin not only in overindulgence but also laziness. I doubt they are any more (or less) prone to the sin or jealousy than anyone else. They probably do more often struggle with the sin of despair, as they try over and over, and fail over and over, to shed the extra weight that makes such a difference in the eyes of many people.
I also doubt that jealousy is at the root of the problem. From personal experience, I would say it has more to do with looking for happiness and comfort in the wrong places.
I’m not sure what you mean about people you know who “take out their weight on” the rest of you when they are in a bad mood. I’ve known quite a few overweight people, including some who are severely overweight, and I’ve never seen them behave in a way that would fit that description. If it’s what Graceland mentions above, that’s a sign of rudeness and is not connected with one’s weight. I certainly don’t see any overweight people getting a “free pass” for anything.
I do know what you mean about sitting next to someone who is very overweight. Chloe Marshall does not look to be anywhere near that size, but my husband is, and used to be much more so (he’s down about 180 pounds from two years ago). He has his faults, like anyone else, but I don’t think more so than the average person. His are simply more obvious to the casual observer.
“But what bothers me and her is that “bigger” folk get a free pass to say to her, “not that you would know anything about being fat” or “well I’m just not lucky enough to be thin like you.”
How is she supposed to respond to that???”
How about: “That’s right. I guess you can’t rely on luck like me. You’re stuck with the only option of working your fat buns off in order to get thin. You better get going on that. That way, you’ll know what it feels like to be thin and cool like me.”
By the way, there are some thin people that do know a lot about being fat. I have met people who are quite slender and who I was very surprised to find out had once been extremely overweight. Some lost the weight through surgery, others simply through exercise and healthy eating. It’s ignorant to think you know much about someone’s experiences based on looking at their figure, whatever size they are.
Karen
YOU POST:…. “Graceland - If it makes you & your wife feel a bit better, I think those comments, though awkward, are intended in a complimentary nature.”
NO Karen, you are wrong. More importantly you add to the snide remarks with an excuse.
It’s not pleasant to be singled out by those who are overweight, making unkind remarks. When it happens too often I stop going to lunch or shopping with those individuals.
In my experience, Karen o is never snide.
Sometimes tone in writing can get misinterpreted or even miscommunicated.
This is most probably a misunderstanding.
Karen O,
Know your audience.
Pauline (59),
Very well said.
I’m a thin person who can’t gain weight if I try. Through the decades my weight has gradually gone up, and is (I think) a decent weight for me now. But I have very thin arms, and I think people sometimes think I’m thinner than I actually am because of my small frame. (I wear 8 or 10 in pants, for instance–not particularly tiny.) But I get a free pass on what I eat. At a restaurant, I nearly always take a doggie bag, and am usually the only one at the table who does–but I imagine I eat more chocolate in the course of a week than the average adult does, and I can get quite a few desserts at a buffet or a potluck. I get away with it.
I will say that the word “skinny” is NOT a compliment to someone who’s small framed, no matter how many times overweight people say they mean it that way. (I’ve never in my life been called “slender,” but that’s a positive word–why not use it? “Thin” works well too. “Skinny” says concentration-camp survivor when you say it to a thin person, no matter how kindly it is meant.)
When I was about 20, working in a drugstore, an old lady customer once asked me, “You’re so skinny. How much do you weigh?” It wasn’t any of her business, so I simply responded, “I don’t know. I haven’t weighed myself lately.” She persisted: “But last time you weighed yourself, how much did you weigh?” I’ve kicked myself for 20 years that I didn’t give an innocent, “A hundred and five. And you?”
I’ve rarely had overweight people make rude comments, though, unless I count that persistent, galling use of the word skinny.
By the way, re this woman: I wouldn’t use the word “obese.” She is overweight, but if the word “obese” is used here, it becomes sort of meaningless, I think.
EYG
Perhaps you are right, however I didn’t appreciate it.
#13 I’d say that fat rolls are pretty standard on obese women, and that’s what people are calling her. She’s overweight, but not obese.
I have mentioned before my husband and I meeting Os Guinness (lived at L’Abri for six years, met his wife there) and his wife Jenny. We met them at a special meeting one night and then a short time later attended a dinner party where they were the ‘guests of honor’ - later I was invited to a morning coffee at one of my friends where Jenny would be the guest of honor. I was thrilled to go, all my friends would be there too. Right in the middle of a group of my friends one gal said “how does it feel to NOT be the thinnest in the room?” where this comment came from, why it was uttered I don’t know, but it was very rude, and couldn’t be missed, it was snide as well. As I remember everyone just stood there in silence.
Some of you might not know this, but Jenny Guinness was a top model for Vogue and other publications before she left that life after becoming a Christian. She’s a wonderful person, and YES she is slender and beautiful.
Cheryl - I’d say that perhaps the people who call you “skinny” are rude unintentionally. Most overweight people wish they could one day be called “skinny”!
Victoria - I in no way intended to be snide in any of my comments.
Karen
OK.
Karen the remarks are most often ‘intentional’ the comments many times don’t end with just a few words. What it amounts to is, the over-weight person wanting to make an ‘excuse’ for their being over-weight, when weight was never part of the conversation.
Karen instead of trying to guess and make excuses for what you THINK was meant, since you weren’t present when these remarks were made, why not try and see the other side. I tease a lot, and I know when someone is just being playful with me, HOWEVER, I also know when people are being outright RUDE.
Let’s face it - People in general can be rude or tasteless, on purpose or unintentionally.
Facial expression says a lot about how a comment is intended. For instance, if someone calls Cheryl “skinny” but smiles, or has a generally positive expression, while saying it, it is probably meant as somewhat complimentary. But if that one has a frown or scowl or other negative expression, then it is obviously not meant in a good way.
We should all give each other the benefit of the doubt & try not to be easily offended.
Again, what is the criteria for this pageant? Is it poise? Communication skills? Artistic talent? Friendliness? Numbers on a scale? Tape measure? Personality? Desire to be a spokesperson for some cause or an other? Academics? People come in all shapes and sizes and, depending on the purpose of the pageant, a large woman could well fit the bill just as a small woman could. We, in America, have a terrible “thing” with weight and it goes both ways. Good healthy eating and exercising is certainly the ideal but it is not all there is to beauty.
Karen O,
Just to prove your point wrong, I have a girl that if she smiles while saying it, it could well be mean intended. But for the most part..
Mumsee
I believe most people know that ‘beauty pageants’ consist of beautiful young women, who are reasonably bright, and focused on a career. The fact they are called ‘beauty pageants’ would indicate ‘beauty’ being one of importance.
Beauty is a gift from GOD, not everyone uses it to honor the LORD, but it is a gift. There are many gifts one can have, some have more than others. Think of those who are blessed with the ability to sing from the first time they sing as a child, its a GIFT. It can be used to honor GOD or themselves.
Victoria,
Well, then, she qualifies, she looks like a beautiful young woman. Not so sure wearing a two piece swimsuit and heels is God glorifying. Almost like they are trying to reach another audience than the audience of One.
Mumsee
“I know I am sort of getting off topic, but I wanted to agree with this statement. There is a double standard regarding the discussion of weight. It would be considered very rude for a thin person to point out that another is fat, but it is fair game for the fat person to comment on the thin.
My wife is tall and thin (and beautiful I might add). She happened to receive good genes, but she is also very conscious about eating healthy. But what bothers me and her is that ‘bigger’ folk get a free pass to say to her, ‘not that you would know anything about being fat” or ‘well I’m just not lucky enough to be thin like you.’”
Since fat is generally considered unattractive and thin is generally considered attractive, I don’t see the problem here. It would be rude to point out that someone is ugly, while it’s complimentary to point out that someone is nice-looking. I’m amazed that this should be disputed.
Victoria,
I am going out on a limb here, and remember, I asked what the criteria is because I don’t know. You tell me in 75 that the beauty pageant is to judge: physical beauty, mental acuity, and career goals. Hmm. Now, that sounds a bit strange. Physical beauty as we know is in the eye of the beholder. Mental acuity can be assessed to a degree (though some think more on the left side, others on the right so, unless the judges are looking at both sides and can find a balance, there could be a problem). And focused on a career. Does that mean she should know what she wants to be when she grows up (she is seventeen). Is she disqualified if she wants to be a housewife or does that work?
In my understanding, beauty is supposed to come from the inside. Character should influence the package. Yes, taking time and interest in eating right and exercising are part of it, but only a small part and we need to be careful about making them more important than say: loving your neighbor, caring for the widows and orphans, loving God.
This girl is taking a cause and standing for it which seems to be one thing these pageants want. She is standing up for the many overweight women who are embarassed or bitter or whatever and become so focused on their weight that it takes away from their lives and what they could be doing. I think that is a good thing.
The real double standard is that, if a woman doesn’t eat enough or forcefully vomits what she ate, she is excused as as “having an eating disorder,” but if she eats too much, she’s called names and not allowed any excuses. Overeating is an eating disorder, too, and has many causes, not just lack of will power. Emotional problems cause just as much obesity as anorexia.
If a person with emotional problems drinks too much, the cure [hard as it it] is to stop drinking. But how does someone just stop eating? And just eating less [or “better”] is not all that easy, as all of us who have struggled can say.
BTW, I think the word “obese” is too often used to describe someone who is only a little over their ideal weight. According to WebMD, an obese person is someone who is 20% over their ideal weight [if a person’s ideal weight is, say, 150 pounds, they become obese when they hit 180 pounds, not 160].
Kayvee asks, “But how does someone just stop eating?”
I’ve heard this battle described as having to let the tiger out of the cage (to eat), then try to get him back in the cage quickly (to avoid overeating).
I’ve never had a tiger for a pet (obviously!), but I know my kitty fights tooth & nail to avoid going in the cat-carrier/cage when we need to take her to the doctor.
Karen O - It’s not always a matter of eating too much food, it’s often a matter of eating the wrong food. That’s why diet pills don’t work for them [equate pills to letting the tiger out of the cage to eat]. They’re supposed to curb the physical appetite, but an emotional eater doesn’t overeat because he feels hunger. Rather he eats because of feelings of loneliness, inadequacy, depression, loss, or a zillion other things. Often that leads to eating things that taste good but have no nutritional value. The emotional overeater knows that, but thinks ‘nobody cares anyway, so I’ll eat this even though I know it’s wrong for me.’ Of course, that is followed by more feelings of loneliness, depression, inadequacy, etc. And more eating of the wrong thing.
I want to thank Metanoia for his post at #46.
What bothers me is that there are people who attack obese people the way others take up being green (the environment). Some people take up these causes with such an intensity that they lose perspective.
Why do we have these problems more today than when I was a kid? I think it’s because our society demands that we live such a fast life that people have no time for family life, no time to sit around a table together, so they buy a prepared meal or go to the fast food place to save time. Maybe the real problem isn’t food but a lack of family life, among other things. It’s really about the way we live, and until we take a hard look at our society as a whole and ask what we really want out of life, nothing will really change.
Mumsee - 79
Yes there is inner beauty, there is also beauty which someone is born with, which is on the outside. A person can be both beautiful outside, being born of physical beauty and have inner beauty as well.
When I posted earlier of Os Guinness’s wife Jenny, she is beautiful on the outside, slender, and beautiful inside too.
Victoria,
And that is my difficulty. I know that, when a woman is completely healthy (emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually) she is at her best. And there are a few, very few, women who are that healthy. I don’t think they can necessarily be found in beauty pageants though I am certain some can. It just appears as though the focus is more on physical appearance and that appearance must fit a certain mold, a mold that we all know has become more slender over the years. Isn’t Marylyn Monroe held up as the standard for a few years past and thought to be “pleasantly plump” now? Not that she had the rest of her life in order in any way. Just thinking how the standard for physical beauty is a changing thing and true beauty is eternal. So, for the purposes of a pageant, if a pudgy girl is meeting the other considerations, should she be ruled out for some excess pounds?
Many women have a difficult time imagining that another woman, born beautiful, lovely to look at, and at the same time be very kind, loving and beautiful inside.
There are both over-weight women and slender women who are kind loving, their outward appearance has nothing to do with it. However, if those who are pretty happen to be slender, is that a reason to hold it against them, and look for their flaws?
Is good health, and proper weight good examples? If so, why would anyone accept an over-weight person as an example of beauty? It just doesn’t make sense. It isn’t healthy, nor is this person a good ROLE MODEL for other young women.
Do any of you remember the Christian woman who won Miss America, she had been deaf since the age of two. She was amazing, her talent was ballet, and when she danced, it made everyone joyful, she danced to the music of the Via Dolorosa When she won the title (1995)everyone was happy, she was born with natural beauty, however she was beautiful in the inside too Her is Heather Whitestone. She won both the talent and the swimsuit competition. She was 22 years old the year she won Miss America.
Below is a fun site. Look through some of the winners, many have gone on to wonderful careers, helping others and raising families.
Heather Whitestone, 1995
Karen O.,
I do know that most people who use the term “skinny” are saying “I wish I could be that thin.” It’s still the wrong word, because it means someone who is too thin–sickly. A comparable term would probably be “scrawny”–it simply isn’t a compliment. I’m not “insulted” by it, knowing it isn’t meant to be an insult. But I’m absolutely not flattered by it.
One of my nephews absolutely shocked his mother at age four when he told her in tears that he wished people would stop calling him “skinny.” I’m sure no one was meaning to insult him, but he heard people use the word, and just instinctively heard that they were saying he was too thin and didn’t measure up physically. He was either three or four at the time, no older than that.
As much as heavy people might long to be “skinny,” the word itself really is almost as loaded (to a thin person) as “fat” is to a heavy person. That may generally be more true to men than to women (”skinny” would imply not enough muscle, not just too little fat, to a man), but my family is nearly all men, and from childhood on I’ve been part of a thin family whose members cringe at being called “skinny.” Perhaps if my family had been mostly women, I wouldn’t have seen my dad and four older brothers insulted by the term, and pick up that I too was supposed to see it as an insult. My mom wasn’t thin, and never was called skinny, but I saw my older brothers go on bulking-up diets in their teen years in order to get people to stop calling them “skinny.” (BTW, my thin nephew is the only one in his family who’d be called “skinny,” so he didn’t pick it up as an insult by seeing other people react to the word. He reacted to its implications to him.)
Re: Metanoia #46- I’m 6 feet 5 inches. My doctor tells me that my weight is fine, but that I need to grow another 7 inches.
As Garfield the Cat said: “I’m not overweight, just undertall.”
Cheryl D.,
I wouldn’t be so sure people weren’t trying to insult your nephew by calling him skinny. My sister was teased a lot as a child for being skinny. Adults might have said it without realizing the impact it would have, but children tend to tease anyone who is different from what they see as “normal.”
I agree with Pauline that children tend to tease what they think is “abnormal.” But so do adults. And when you harp on weight, if that’s your weakness, you’ll eat more. There has to be a way to teach nutrition and self-worth that doesn’t make heavy people feel so bad that they eat even more, especially for young people.
Ree - it’s rude to point out something about one’s appearance in general, whether fat or thin or black or white or…. “Wow you have thick eyebrows” or “What a round butt you have” or “You’re so thing” or “You’re nicely plump” are all rude. I don’t think it’s necessary for someone to point out a part of someone’s body. Being small and thin is something people have pointed out to me many times. It always made me self-concious, since I didn’t “blend in” with everyone else. Clothes are harder to find. I was always the smallest one in the room, so I stood out. Not always pleasant. I feel it best not to comment on someone’s appearance unless it is simply to say “You look great!”
TL: “Compared to the last time I saw you, you look great!”
Context is everything.
You are correct!
TL,
Apparently, I and, I’ve always presumed, the people I’m accustomed to associating with, just have a different standard for what we consider offensive. I’ve always taken and intended as a compliment any sincere and positive comment about a person’s appearance. Granted, some comments could theoretically be beyond the bounds of propriety if they’re too graphic or personal, but I’ve encountered no incidences of any such kind that come to mind. Finding out here that other people’s sensibilities aren’t like my own, though, I guess I should be more careful in the future. Perhaps I should never again tell a friend that the sun in her hair brings out beautiful highlights, nor should I mention to my friend’s teenage daughter how her prom dress emphasizes her pretty little tiny waist. Just a generic, “You look great!” will have to suffice, lest I inadvertently offend anyone by a compliment. Ahh, nevermind. I’ll risk it.
Some of the debate/argument on here seems to be on who is more rude, fat people or thin people (or pleasantly plump or slender).
ISTM that the people who are rude are so not because they’re thin or not-thin, but because they had a rude streak to begin with.
So it’s kinda silly to debate whether it’s the thin who are more rude to the fat, or the fat are more rude to the thin.
Karen
It doesn’t have anything to do with a “rude streak”- its jealousy. People who are over-weight many times are angry, and take it out on other people, not just slender women or men who stay trim and fit, but anyone who has something they desire. Why would a trim person be jealous of an over-weight person? - - - I doubt that has ever happened. It wouldn’t even make sense, but it’s easy to understand how someone who needs to diet would be jealous of a person who didn’t need to lose any weight at all.
I have never heard anyone say to an over-weight person, “you certainly are fat” or “were you born fat” or “does it run in your family to be fat” or “you sure must have a problem buying clothes, you are so big”-
What I have heard is “you don’t eat much do you” or “why are you so thin” or “you are so skinny, why don’t you put some weight on” or “have you always been this thin” or “you need to gain weight” or “I suppose you can wear those clothes, I can’t”-
No, people are rude to heavy people behind their back or with their actions. Must be jealousy.
I think you nailed it Karen, a rude person is going to be rude until they learn to not be rude. For some that never happens. For others, it may take a shot of empathy or some such thing.
Thanks, Mumsee.
Victoria - I have heard (& heard of) comments made by a thin person to a fat person, but Mumsee does have a point that most comments seem to be behind their backs. Even so, the “looks” speak volumes.
Examples - “He really needs to lose weight.” Said in the man’s hearing. And he had recently lost 50 lbs. & was still losing.
“You’ve got a fat belly.”
“Wow. You got fat since last I saw you!”
And just today a good friend mentioned someone referring to her daughters, in front of them, as “the thin sister & the heavy sister”.
The thing is, a thin person is going to be more aware of rude comments towards the thin, & an overweight person is going to be more aware of rude comments towards the overweight.
Karen,
Careful, you are still making sense here.
Karen,
We have two different experiences, that is obvious.
The point I was making is this, no one envy’s an over-weight person, I don’t know even one person who would like to be fat. But I do know a number of either obese, or over-weight people who make nasty remarks that are uncalled for.
One of the reasons I refrain from having lunch with women who are over-weight….they spend a lot of time talking about their weight, and it’s BORING. It’s not too different from women who constantly complain about other women who wear heels, dress smart, or enjoy manicures, and make-up, often times making snide remarks, its just jealousy.
Victoria - Well, you could look at the positive side & be glad you can be someone others are jealous of.
Victoria - Please don’t be offended by my last comment. I was just being silly.
Victoria,
I’d think refraining from having lunch with someone is worse than a comment that you can wear something she can’t. (In my experience it’s rare that a person of any size spends a lunch hour talking about her weight.) And yes, I think overweight people deal with more than we do–stares, comments behind their backs, people refusing to hire them, etc.
Cheryl
You misunderstood what I said. Having lunch with those who are over-weight always brings up the endless discussion of diets, and everything that entails. I just can’t spend an hour and half talking about food, diets, and their weight problems.
We all have had different experiences, mine are not the same as yours.
Actually this whole thread has become tiresome and dull.
We have just been dismissed…
I’m gonna go bake some cookies.
MMMMMMMMM……Cookies! Me love cookies! What kind Karen?
107-109,
My sugar cookies, VS. And they’re yummy!