More Active Posts
Front Page
Treacherous trap
 |
 37 Comments |
“Flirtation” is such a precious word. It almost seems to have petticoats and frills.
But flirtation is treachery. The person who is flirting is setting a trap. Her goal is to get you to desire her, and to be miserable in your desire. She holds out golden apples in silver settings, but you cannot have them.
I’m writing this post because a married man I know saw a small photo of a flirtatious woman that accompanied an article in a magazine (a Christian magazine, no less), and he was awake all night thinking about her. In other words, this was not even a direct hit — demonstrating the power of flirtation even once removed.
For my money, the best defense against a flirt is to see it through God’s eyes:
“…She appeared to be contorting her all but invisible face and writhing her smokelike body in a quite meaningless fashion. At last I came to the conclusion — incredible as it seemed — that she supposed herself still capable of attracting them and was trying to do so. She was a thing that had become incapable of conceiving conversation save as a means to that end. If a corpse already liquid with decay had arisen from the coffin, smeared its gums with lipstick, and attempted a flirtation, the result could not have been more appalling. In the end she muttered ‘Stupid creatures,’ and turned back to the bus” (C.S.Lewis, The Great Divorce).
And the best defense against becoming a flirt, based on 1 Timothy 5:1, is to treat men your age like brothers and younger men like sons.
 |
Topic: Front Page, Odds & Ends |  |
Email a friend |
 |
Keywords: adultery, flirtation |  |
RSS 2.0 |
 |
You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed. |  |
Share this: |
Messiah complex
Steve Green has a wonderful song about this. It’s called “Guard Your Heart”
What appears to be a harmless glance
Can turn to romance
And homes are divided
Feelings that should never have been
Awaken within
Tearing the heart in two
Listen, I beg of you!
Chorus:
Guard your heart, Guard your heart
Don’t trade it for treasure
Don’t give it away
Guard your heart, Guard your heart
As a payment for pleasure
It’s a high price to pay
For a soul that remains sincere
With a conscience clear
Guard your heart
The human heart is easily swayed
And often betrayed
At the hands of emotion
We dare not leave the outcome to chance
We must choose in advance
Or live with the agony
Such needless tragedy
It’s a sad, sad thing to watch a man succumb. You can just see the hormones overriding the brain cells.
Prov 31:3 Do not give your strength to women,
your ways to those who destroy kings.
Well, I am glad to see this addressed, and it should be addressed in a deeper way more often. Now, I can’t say for sure why I attended four years of Bible college without being chosen as a bride, but I was reasonably sure at the time (and now) that it was because of my determination not to flirt. Flirting makes it easy for the guy; he doesn’t have to make the first move. But he’s supposed to make the first move, and thus I refused to flirt, but did respond politely to men who interacted with me.
Yes, I know there’s a difference between flirtation of singles and flirtation of married people–but is it really all that different? It’s a habit that many find hard to break, and even a single woman flirting with a single man is using a manipulating power over a man that to me doesn’t seem the best way to interact in any context, unless you’re already married to the man you’re flirting with.
Proverbs 4:23 Keep your heart with all vigilance,
for from it flow the springs of life.
Do so, and you need not stay awake all night thinking about she who doesn’t exist in the first place.
When people are single, there certainly is no reason NOT TO let someone else who is also single, know you might be interested, or find them attractive.
It’s just human nature to be attracted (when single) to another person. However when the ‘other person’ is married that’s off bounds.
#3 Cheryl: It’s a habit that many find hard to break, and even a single woman flirting with a single man is using a manipulating power over a man that to me doesn’t seem the best way to interact in any context, unless you’re already married to the man you’re flirting with.
I agree with you 100%! I did not know there were still women around who believe this. I don’t think we should be going around “advertising” our attractions–we need to let GOD choose our mates.
Fantasy is a huge problem whether it is the sexual type or simply daydreaming about “what if I was married to this person?”
Some things that work for me:
1. I may be playing a fantasy in my head for several minutes but as soon as I become aware of what I am doing I pull over get on my knees (as appropriate) and ask God for the willingness to let go of it. I don’t condemn myself for the earlier minutes that the fantasy was playing in my head (though I confess it as sin). The more I practice, the sooner I will catch myself and it will be easier to practice turning my thought life over to God.
2. If it is a fantasy I am thinking about while half-asleep, get up and pray even if I don’t feel like it. Watch an old family-friendly TV show (or some enjoyable neutral activity you enjoy) to clear the mind until things pass and then go back to bed.
3. Don’t isolate. Seek human interaction, fellowship and community. In fantasy, I objectify the person and attribute magical qualities to them in order to fulfill my need of intimacy. But intimacy of trust, respect and tolerance may only be achieved with real people who have flaws as well as admirable qualities.
I would agree with Victoria that there’s no problem flirting by and among singles. But a single flirting with a married person — or vice versa! — is defintely off limits.
I do not mean to upset Cheryl or Janie — I am not advocating low necklines or anything of the sort, but I think Victoria is right when she says there’s no problem letting a member of the opposite sex know you are interested or available. Sticking your head in a book isn’t going to help you get a date, and young men are sometimes afraid of approaching a pretty girl. A little encouragement takes that fear away.
“Flirting” is one of those words that can have different connotations. One person might think of casual, friendly flirting while someone else may associate the word with more aggressive flirting.
When I was a single young woman, I flirted in a subtle way. Now as a married woman of 22 years, I love overtly flirting with my hubby. It always catches him off guard & makes him smile.
I agree with Karen O that flirting can have several interpretations. While I wholeheartedly support letting someone know of one’s interest and/or availability, the majority of flirting (at least as I have observed it) does not fall under this category. Too often flirting is merely a way to attract attention to one’s self. It awakens desires that it has no intention of satisfying. It seems to me that Victoria and NJL are talking about the first kind of “flirting,” while most others are talking about the second.
Perhaps JBH is correct that we are talking about two different things, but I agree with Cheryl D, et al, that traditional flirting is not appropriate Christian behavior.
When a woman flirts with a man, it’s rarely in a one-on-one situation. If there are other men they (including married ones) are equally susceptible to the flirting.
I’ve encountered several women with the same flirting traits in a work environment. It goes something like this: She bats her eyes and acts all cutesy for the target men (there is usually more than one target, just in case). The other men and the women are uncomfortable. She goes out of her way to be handy and helpful for the flirtees, but when she interacts with the other men, she can’t be bothered. This makes everyone uncomfortable.
She gets engaged, but can’t stop her flirting ways. She gets married but can’t stop her flirting ways. Now she’s no longer a flirt, she’s a tease.
She gets divorced. Fortunately, she hasn’t lost her ability to call attention to herself and can repeat the cycle.
- 11 -
That’s an interesting scenario you have drawn. Since I come from a professional corporate level, I have rarely seen this behavior. It does exist, but it isn’t the normal. The women you are describing aren’t going to go very far with that agenda - Not only is that repulsive to women, MOST men aren’t interested either. The word travels VERY FAST regarding women, and lets not forget the ‘ladies men’ who behave like starved animals. Most people and those at top levels want nothing to do with it.
Being attractive will call attention, both male and female. That doesn’t mean there is a moral problem, or the male/female is out looking.
I’ve met some unattractive males and females who were just as immoral, maybe more so than those who were very attractive - they manage to hide behind plain clothes and little make-up -
Cheryl D (and others) - I think there has to be at least a low level of flirting (i.e. some degree of indication of interest - modest and demure, but something), or else decent men aren’t going to approach. Women get pursued and men get rejected. Most men try to limit the rejection by only pursuing if they sense some interest - that sense comes from detecting some reasonable flirting.
I like post #8.
I might even go as far as to argue that some Christian women and/or men are far too worried about flirting turning into sin that they aren’t able to reach a healthy flirting level (if they’re singles, flirting with singles, of course).
Yes, some people need to flirt more appropriately, but there are also others who just plain need to flirt more and not be so scared. I fully admit I used to be scared to flirt lest I “compromise holiness.”
I once tried to ‘flirt’ with a waitress by WINKING at her, but she somehow thought I was having some sort of attack or fit, instead.
She ran and brought out the first aid kit while the manager dialed 911.
It was sort of embarassing, so I simply don’t try to ‘flirt’ anymore.
I am now at the age where one does not ‘flirt’ anyway; about the best I can do these days is to manage to look like I am more or less dimly aware of my surroundings.
I know why I like Drill so much! I’ve always been susceptible to a winker.
I think KRM is correct in #13. Unless you want to go to arranged marriages where the parties don’t meet until after their married, how else would a guy know if a girl were interested if she didn’t give him some clue?
We’ve been mostly discussing women flirting, but men have their way of flirting, too.
I haven’t posted this for a while. I post because I can and because I feel like it.
Human sexuality is the equivalent in psychology to nuclear energy in politics. It can be useful, for reproducing the species and for strengthening relationships and expressing love. It is frequently out of control and often very dangerous.
All attempts to control and guide it on a significant scale have not been successful. Neither the liberal approach of tolerance and education nor the conservative/religious approach of preaching and restricting have ever demonstrated much success at bringing sexuality under control. Posting messages on World on the Web, even the ones posted by Victoria, has not shown much success either.
Karen, thats true, but more often than not women are the target, while men get a pass.
Well, I think a woman can show interest in ways other than flirting–in being responsive if he strikes up a conversation, for instance, or in smiling, in all sorts of ways like one might do with a friend. Those are not flirting in my book. And I’ve been in too many situations where a man has married someone else and I’ve been very, very glad to say that I can look his wife in the eye with no guilt.
In one case, if circumstances had been different the guy might have courted me. I could see his brain working that way, and I interacted him in a way that didn’t shut down the possibility. But without the option ever being stated, he and I both knew he needed to decide whether he wanted me or he wanted to move to Alaska. He couldn’t have both. He chose Alaska. Neither of us had done anything to sully the other, even flirtation. (We’d had one date, and many other conversations, but our relationship was completely innocent.) Even if I’d been tempted to help him make his decision by flirting, it would have been a turnoff–he wasn’t looking for the flirting kind of woman, and I wasn’t the flirting kind of woman. So we interacted as a brother and sister in Christ, and then went our separate ways, with no regrets on either side. But I’m fairly sure he considered me, and knew enough to know that I wasn’t uninterested; and other friends who knew us agree with my speculation on that. I have no regrets that I used discretion and didn’t “encourage” him beyond friendly coversation and saying yes the one time he asked me out (”as friends”). But ultimately he felt called to Alaska, and that made his choice clear–a heat lover wasn’t the right wife for him.
Modesty and demureness definitely have a place as KRM contends but not as more subtle shades of flirtation. I see flirtation as a conscious act that needs continuous restraint, unlike Victoria who feels that flirting is not normal in the work place (may I add church?). Modesty and demureness may be just as conscious behaviors to restrain uninhibited flirtation, the motive being to draw attention higher things than lust.
This brother and sister thing should work in a church (although it is often poorly executed or neglected) but in the work place people have more varied motives. It pays to be prudent (oops, another non-PC term). Although I fail at it often myself, others should see our love for Christ especially when we don’t speak. The message the other should receive is one of respect and value that emanates from our value in Christ. In marriage this should certainly be manifest in sexual flirting in the right times and places.
Dick Friedrich
Flirting in church?
Would that be in the H.S. or college groups or singles? I see nothing wrong with guys and gals showing interest in one another. I’m not talking about overt flirting, or clothes that aren’t appropriate. I don’t believe the word ‘flirting’ is a good word to describe showing an interest in someone of the opposite sex, its rather cheap - actually I haven’t heard that word too often lately.
Obviously if married people are being overly friendly with the opposite sex, that needs to stop. And yes it does happen which is shameful.
I would like to take each of these negatively focused posts and turn them into their positive counterparts. How to love, rather than how to lust!
This thread makes me think about the Kim Hill song, Charm Is Deceitful.
Charm is deceitful,
Beauty is vain,
But a woman who fears the Lord shall be praised.
A woman who fears the Lord.
In a world where we see with our eyes
I pray for eyes that see the heart,
‘Cause flesh is unfaithful
And is of no gain,
But a woman who fears the Lord shall be praised.
A woman who fears the Lord.
And I know that when he sees me
It will not be beauty that he beholds,
It will be the beauty inside my heart.
‘Cause charm is deceitful,
Beauty is vain,
But a woman who fears the Lord shall be praised.
A woman who fears the Lord.
That’s beautiful Klasco, thank you -
Some of you may find the book, “His Brain, Her Brain” by Walt Larimore, MD and Barb Larimore interesting. Their section on how both men’s brains and women’s brains are wired to complement and make marriages stronger, in the area of sexuality is very interesting. Perhaps there should be a little more flirting after marriage–to each other.
As for the song, I see the truth in it, but I would hope that every man would see his wife as beautiful, not only on the outside, but both inside and out. Not everyone has the same definition of beauty. I cannot imagine any wife happy to think her husband does not find her beautiful. Most parents find their own children beautiful, even if they don’t fit societies definition of beauty.
26-
ah, discernment, and real life experience; thank you!!
Regarding singles interested in one another, I think Cheryl D. has it right. As other posts have stated, I believe it is the man’s responsibility to initiate by approaching the woman. The womans responsibility is to be open to the approach.
Too often, men are not allowed to fulfill their role as leader because the women take charge in initiating the relationship and this carries over into the marriage. How many married woman are there out there who pray every night for their husbands to take the lead in the household.
In initiaiting contact, men need to put aside all their fears and concerns and approach a woman they feel God is leading them towards. What they don’t need is for the gal they approach to have a panic attack and clam up or “bury their head in a book” because the guy is so spiritual or attractive or any other positive attribute. If the guy is a wacko, then yes, bury that head, but sooo many woman are terrified of men they are attracted to and destroy opportunities by shutting down or turning away.
The danger in women approaching is that a man is very capable of liking a woman just because she is interested in him. This seems backwards to me and dangerous for the woman because down the road the man will discover his only interest in her is and was because she was interested in him. I believe that was Cliff Clavens standard for seeking Mrs. Right.
Regarding flirting, I face it daily in my place of work. There are days when it is difficult not to dwell on the flirtor (me being the flirtee) and I do my best not to reciprocate. I can’t sit here and say I have always avoided that temptation. But it is easy to see where fantasy can drift from reality as we are exposed to the self seeking motives that normally accompany flirting folks.
It happens at church too where I have seen men who flirt a lot and I have always felt bad for the wives who had to watch their husbands behave like that towards other women. It’s very sad. Married folks need to save their flirting for their spouses, and to them I say flirt flirt flirt!!!
Warning, if you have a spouse that flirts too much with others, you may have an affair to deal with down the road so nip that sort of thing in the bud if you can. I’ve seen it happen.
I have single women friends at church who feel so rejected by men because the men do not approach them or flirt with them, they go to secular gathering places just so they can be approached and feel some good about themselves.
Obviously these women need to work on their confidence through Christ alone and not gauge themselves on how many cute guys say hi to them whenever they go out, but still, there needs to be a balance in letting our sisters know they are desirable without acting out desires on them haha. Good luck with that one!
Chalzz 28 - 29
Just curious, are you a married male or female?
31-
I am guessing that Chalzz is female
I just thought it would be fun to guess
We’ll see!
I needed this kick in the pants…thanks, Andrée!
REG, I’m not sure, could be.
I am male, single, never married, in my 40’s now. Lots of girlfriends in the past, left too many broken hearts. Can commit to a relationship, but not to marriage. Dangerous man to get involved with emotionally.
Been heavily involved in christian singles ministries for 15 years now. Lots of personal experiences and lots of witness to the experiences of others in this field. I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I can point to plenty of mistakes on my part and on the part of others to discuss on topics like this.
So who wins the bet?
I doubt anyone who is this overconfident, has rarely broken hearts anywhere, but the EGO needs caressing -
When I read the posts on this thread and others with all the flip, glib answers, I was rather certain this would be the case. Lots of experience but no success.
Victoria, I wish I could challenge your statements, but all but one are right on:
1. I can be quite overconfident, but it’s only a defense mechanism for the true unconfidence that dominates my spirit.
2. My ego is a major battle for me. When I am not focused on God, it is a menace to deal with both for me and for those around me.
3. I will have to look up flip and glib but I am probably that too. Neither one sound very impressive and since I am not to impressed with myself of late, they are probably appropriate adjectives for me.
4. Indeed I have lots of experience in dating, but no success (assuming marriage is the ultimate success).
Where you are wrong is calling me a liar. I could have been married 6 times in the past 8 years if I had only popped the question. It is easy for me to meet women and build relationships, but difficult to commit to marriage.
Chalzz
YOU WRITE:
“Where you are wrong is calling me a liar. I could have been married 6 times in the past 8 years if I had only popped the question.”
Don’t confuse yourself, I nor anyone else called you a liar - I said “I doubt” and I do -
that isn’t calling you a liar.
You have a good weekend!